All Poster Stuff

[kovacs01]

So, it shouldn't be a hard thing to grasp when bidding that there's a fixed % above your highest bid.
In Australia we have GST but it has to be included in the price (for items where GST is payable), so no surprises at the till, but when dealing with auctions I can still make my brain so a small mathematical calculation in a second or so.

I agree, I do not really have any problem with the BP.  Those who are intellectually challenged or for whatever reason choose to remain ignorant might though.  But, that is their fault.

The only problem I see with the buyers premiums is that they will tend to artificially inflate the price of a poster over time.  When you go look at the HA auction archives, it gives you the price paid with buyers premium.  How many people do you think extract that BP when they are researching what the poster is worth and what to bid for it in the future?  I am betting it is a low number.  They end the bidding with a hammer price at or near what was paid previously (BP included).  And then the 19% BP is added on top of that, effectively increasing the price of the poster by 20% each iteration.  Bear in mind though, this is just my gut feeling of what transpires, and I have no evidence that it is actually so.

[Ari]

Possibly right, that's why the old saying, buy what you like and pay what you can afford and feels right to you is a handy "auction tool"

[MoviePosterBid.com]

why should the BP be subtracted from the final cost when you research past data?

when I bid, my cost is my complete cost. If I paid $1195 for a Murder My Sweet half sheet, the final cost is $1195, not $1000 and when I was bidding, I wasn't looking at the $1000 on the red button, I was looking at the "$1195 with BP" under the red button.

I don't have math problems, and like any item I buy, my cost is my out-of-pocket, not some lesser amount

[kovacs01]

why should the BP be subtracted from the final cost when you research past data?

I did not say that it should be.  I just said that if the next guy looks and sees that you paid $1195 with BP, and so he bids $1195, then he actually ends up paying $1422.  Then the guy after that sees that it sold for $1422 and decides that he will pay that, the price that shows up after the BP is added is $1692 and so on and so forth.  Effectively, the value and the cost of the same piece of paper has increased by 42% by the time the third guy buys it.  

And I never said you had math problems.  What I said was that folks that dont understand what they are getting into or end up paying more than they want to are either dumb or have math problems.  I have no doubt that most of the folks here, even you Rich, have no misunderstanding about what they are entering into when they bid with heritage.  The rules are clearly stated.  What is not clearly stated and probably not understood by most are the long term implications of those rules.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I did not say that it should be.  I just said that if the next guy looks and sees that you paid $1195 with BP, and so he bids $1195, then he actually ends up paying $1422.  Then the guy after that sees that it sold for $1422 and decides that he will pay that, the price that shows up after the BP is added is $1692 and so on and so forth.  

oh, so you're talking about an idiot who is not just mathematically challenged, but one whose IQ is lower than a chair.

the old saying is "a fool and his money are soon parted"

the correct saying is "a fool and his money should have never gotten together in the first place"

[MoviePosterBid.com]

and stop being snarky.

I have no doubt that most of the folks here, even you Rich, have no misunderstanding about what they are entering into when they bid with heritage.  

ps.. in case you hadn't heard.. Nevada legalized internet gaming yesterday

[Bruce]

Here's an easy experiment:

Call up Christie's, Sotheby's, Heritage, giant car auctions, etc, etc.

Tell them you have a collection worth around $25,000 and that you are interested in consigning. Ask them what percentage they will charge you.

You don't mention the buyers premium and see if they do.

Report back here what they say. For extra credit, if they tell you they charge 15% (or whatever) say "So if one of my items sells for $1,000 then I get $850 of that?" and see how they reply.

When I say that my competition LIED, I mean that they showed the consignor a printout showing my commission rate, and then said, "We only charge 15% for catalog sales and 25% for Internet sales, which is way less", and that IS a complete lie, because I charge WAY less than they do, when you compare what the buyer paid to what I (or they) pay the consignor.

If any of you (except for the trolls) want to say that they actually charge LESS than I do (because the buyer pays the BP, not the seller) then I will seriously consider adding buyers premiums, but lowering my commissions so I charge EXACTLY what I do now, which will then still be under what the others charge, but without any wacky argument that I don't charge less due to semantics.

[Ari]

Midsomer Murders tonight,

I spy with my little eye. Sorry for bad pic, I had to be quick.



Edit, and another hammer




Those repros from hammer studios one would assume.

Edit edit, seems quite the collection

[paul waines]

I'd do several midsummer Murders for an Original Curse of Frankenstein Quad

Nice one Ari.

[Charlie]

You are wrong, David. I have lost at least three quality consignments where the sellers were flat out told that the other place charged lower fees than I do. They believed those lies and "went with the place that charged less", when in actuality, I charge less AT EVERY SINGLE PRICE POINT (as Enki once took the time to write out, and is easily verified). You forget that many sellers are not buyers at all, so they have no reason to be aware of buyers premiums when they bring their items to the auction house and ask what the fees are.

I guess the answer is for me to start charging buyers premiums, and then lower my commissions so that I charge EXACTLY the same as I do now, but then my competitors would lose the ability to lie in that way.

Yes!  Great example...

Heritage and auctions houses do the BP so they can work consignors.  Essentially the auction house fee starts at the BP 20% and they use the consignor side to negotiate in the best pieces. If there is a consignor with a really good collection HA could simply wave the consignor's end or probably floor it to 5% or something.  So I can see how they justify themselves in saying they have lower fees than Bruce because they are selling the consignor side fee not the consignor side + BP...  You see this all the time for Meachum car auctions... it gets close to the reserve and then the guy goes over and lower's the consignor side cut and they lift the reserve...

Bruce/Emovie, MPB and MPE just deal on the consignor side.  They just haven't stooped to the sleazy trickery of corporate auction. Which is great IMO...  Why should I have to pay a fee to buy something from you?  Yes mathematically it all makes sense, but I don't have to like it.  Keep the buying experience is simple.  Keep the consignor side is simple.  I am sure some of you guys find the complexity fascinating but in a smoke filled room somewhere in Dallas they are enjoying a good cigar and laughing at your expense.     

Another great example is sales tax.  When I was in Australia, the price included the tax so when you saw something marked as $5 it was $5  how simple and relaxing is that.  Unlike the US where practically nothing sells for what it is marked except bread... 

[CSM]

Bruce + BP = death of eMovie

[erik1925]

Of course many don't like paying the added BP and the fact that you have to "pay to play" so to speak. I'm no fan of having to pay 20% just to buy from someone else, either. But that is how auctions run and always have.

But to equate these fees, which are explained and up front, in any auction catalog or website, with "sleazy trickery" I think, is incorrect. Trickery suggests something hidden in order to fool someone. And sleazy means "marked by low character or quality."

The bottom line is simple: If one doesnt like or want to pay the added BP, don't play in their sandbox. To bid, then complain about it after the fact, and then go and bid with them again is like someone who hits him/herself on the thumb with a hammer, says that it hurt, then proceeds to do it again. That action is always going to hurt, no matter how much one gripes about it.

[Mirosae]

The bottom line is simple: If one doesnt like or want to pay the added BP, don't play in their sandbox.

Well put Jeff.

[Bruce]

As I have made it clear the "sleaze" factor is not to the buyer (now that they are clearly marked) but to the consignor (where they are not mentioned at all).

[Bruce]

Bruce + BP = death of eMovie

This has a familiar ring to it:
1997 - I stop creating auctions for Christie's - The hobby says "Worst move ever. Bruce has no business without Christie's"
2000 - I move my entire business online to eBay - The hobby says "Worst move ever. That is the death of Bruce's mail-order business, because old-timers HATE computers"
early 2000s - Heritage starts auctioning expensive movie posters - The hobby says "Bruce can't compete with their billion dollar business. That is the death of eMoviePoster. We set new sales records each year since, except one"
2008 - eMoviePoster.com moves onto its own site - The hobby says "Worst move ever. Bruce has no business without eBay; we set new sales records each year since"
late 2000s - others set up competing auction sites - The hobby says "They will take away a lot of eMoviePoster.com's business; we set new sales records each year since"
2013 - Who knows? But one thing is for certain. The hobby will think it is my worst move ever!

[Charlie]

As I have made it clear the "sleaze" factor is not to the buyer (now that they are clearly marked) but to the consignor (where they are not mentioned at all).

 

Why do I keep feeling like Bruce and I are the only ones that get the consignor side manipulation?  HA's/Corp AH consignor fee's start at 20% and then dupe the consignor into another fee by selling it as lower than industry standards.  Who cares about the buyers in this case - there may be some price padding due to the BP, as discussed, but the real dealing and manipulation is with the consignor side fee... "We only charge 15% for items that sell for $50 or less where as emovie will hit you with a 35% fee."  All hypothetical but I am sure they never mention the BP to the consignor, so essentially they are equal fees. 

To bid, then complain about it after the fact, and then go and bid with them again is like someone who hits him/herself on the thumb with a hammer, says that it hurt, then proceeds to do it again. That action is always going to hurt, no matter how much one gripes about it.

I've not bought a single thing from HA since my experiences at the 2012 March Signature...  I did bid on a rare OS in one of their auctions recently but it was bid up, oh about, 20% more than past prices indicate - Hmmm.  No hypocrisy in my statements...  I've been off Heritage and have no withdrawal symptoms...

[Silhouette]

Bruce, I don't care what you do, run your business the way you feel it needs to be run.

If you have a poster I want and I can snaffle it at a price I like then I will continue to bid/buy from you. I like your service, I like the volume and variety of posters you offer, I like your dedication to providing a good product, and I like you. I will continue to to consign the odd poster to you (and rarely do I) not because I think you are the cheapest (and frankly that has never been a consideration) but because I think you provide me with the best service.

[Bruce]

Bruce, I don't care what you do, run your business the way you feel it needs to be run.

If you have a poster I want and I can snaffle it at a price I like then I will continue to bid/buy from you. I like your service, I like the volume and variety of posters you offer, I like your dedication to providing a good product, and I like you. I will continue to to consign the odd poster to you (and rarely do I) not because I think you are the cheapest (and frankly that has never been a consideration) but because I think you provide me with the best service.

Thanks for the kind words, David. There are some auctions who charge less than we do, and I am the first to admit it (and of course they try to get consignors based on that) . But Christie's, Sotheby's, and Heritage all charge MORE than we do (at EVERY single price point!) and not only don't they admit it, but they actively deceive at least some first-time consignors.

If they want to claim they have more bidders, have fancy catalogs, have live auctions, whatever, that is fine. But please don't stoop to outright deception. It would be as if they claimed they give better service than we do!

[erik1925]

Bruce,

Are consignors (or potential consignors) NOT told of the fees they will be charged or have deducted, prior to them signing on the dotted line and sending a piece for auction to these major auction houses? And are these "sellers fees" not spelled out in black and white on any consignment form one must submit and sign? I would think there is a section or paragraph on these forms, under the heading of "Fees?"

If the above is all explained and printed to read, I am confused how there is deception going on.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

all this craptalk about fees and BP ignores a very pertinent issue regarding sales points:
the issue that all things are not equal.

it is rare that both of the big houses sell material for the same price. So all things are not equal.
for instance, we do not know, nor can we know in absence of the sale of a Casablanca insert on eMovie whether they could match the $191,000 sale that Heritage had in November.

Not too long before Heritage sold that poster, a copy at the Cinevent auction only sold in the 20s.
by the math alone, Heritage is King Kong on the price result. They're offering a 6 sheet now.. what will that get?
if both houses sell a poster for $1000, the consignor will get more from Bruce. If Heritage get $1500 and Bruce $1000, it is clear who the winner is for the consignor after fees have been deducted.

Heritage's fees are very clear for both bidder & seller just as they are with Bruce (although I always found it funny that on Bruce's consignment page, all fonts are normal size except his fees, which are in a reduced font that you need a magnifier for). The consignor and the bidder make a conscious choice to consign or bid. No one forces anyone to participate. You make your own choices

[Bruce]

Bruce,

Are consignors (or potential consignors) NOT told of the fees they will be charged or have deducted, prior to them signing on the dotted line and sending a piece for auction to these major auction houses? And are these "sellers fees" not spelled out in black and white on any consignment form one must submit and sign? I would think there is a section or paragraph on these forms, under the heading of "Fees?"

If the above is all explained and printed to read, I am confused how there is deception going on.

No, the buyers premium is NOT considered a "fee" so consignors are not told of it. They are told that 15% or 25% will be deducted from the hammer price. Many never even learn of it, even long after the sale (some learn of it when they go to the auction site and see what they item sold for, and wonder why it is different than the price they were told after the sale, and if they inquire, then only then do they learn of it).

[Mirosae]

all this craptalk about fees and BP....

Oye, oye, oye, all this what? QUE? Wash your mouth!


 

[Silhouette]

Thanks for the kind words, David. There are some auctions who charge less than we do, and I am the first to admit it (and of course they try to get consignors based on that) . But Christie's, Sotheby's, and Heritage all charge MORE than we do (at EVERY single price point!) and not only don't they admit it, but they actively deceive at least some first-time consignors.

If they want to claim they have more bidders, have fancy catalogs, have live auctions, whatever, that is fine. But please don't stoop to outright deception. It would be as if they claimed they give better service than we do!

Welcome and it was sincere.

I guess my final point would be is that the more you talk about the opposition the more air time they get. I had a rule in my company, my sales staff were NEVER allowed to discuss openly (with customers) what the opposition was doing, how much their product was, even how it compared to us, ever. Even if a customer raised the opposition in conversation we did not discuss them. But we were extremely happy if our opposition compared us, and when they did often the customer would come running to us saying 'they said this or that etc' and that simply gave us an opportunity to sell our FaBs.

If a company is screwing over their customers in some way or another then other customers will hear about it, talk about and vote with their feet (wallet).

As a business consultant I am constantly surprised how many businesses want to do this, I have to get them to change their thinking, remove any reference they may have in printed matter, brochures (internet) etc. One must promote how good YOU are not how much better you are compared to someone else. If a business needs to point out they are better than someone else then say so, just differently, there lots of examples out there: eg "Find a business who says the are cheaper than us and we'll beat it by X%" and so on.

[Bruce]

Wise advice, David. But what do you advise the client when their competition flat-out lies to take their business away? Just ignore it?

[Silhouette]

Wise advice, David. But what do you advise the client when their competition flat-out lies to take their business away? Just ignore it?

"When times are good, advertise. When times are tough, advertise more" - old saying [no idea who said it].

I tell them to spend time, money and energy on their business and let their customers worry about the opposition and let their opposition worry about their opposition. You will never win every battle nor will you be privy to every conversation your opposition may have with your potential clients.

Another old saying, I have to paraphrase it as I can't remember it verbatim:

"While you are busy looking over your right shoulder at what your customer is doing they have just gone whizzing past your left shoulder..."