What are Test (Printer) Proofs?

[skyjackers]

I guess we weren't that critical, photo: check, text: check, print!

[Bruce]

I printed mass distributed comic books 40 years ago, and of course I have published many books. I also have talked to people involved in printing movie posters.

I agree that calling these "Printer's Test Posters" is more accurate than "Printer's Proof Posters", given that they are unlike "Printer's Proofs" in many printing fields where only one is printed.

I used this term years ago because that it what they were always called, and because sometimes sets of one of each color surfaced, and those were always called "Progressive Printer's Proofs".

From now on, we will list these posters as "Printer's Test Posters", with the following description:

"Note that this is a very rare uncut printer's test poster (often referred to as a "printer's proof")! Before a poster was printed in large quantities, the printer would print a limited number of posters as "test" posters. Because they needed to be shown to people at the studio, people in the art department, the stars, etc, they would print a number of test posters and distribute them to these people. Some of them would be fully trimmed, but often they would leave the color chart on the left edge of many of the posters, which added an extra inch to the width of the poster (which explains why this poster measures 28" x 41"). Once these printer's test posters were shown to the various people in a position to "OK" them, the printer would print the full print run of the posters. Not only is a printer's test poster far more rare than a regular poster of the same type, but it is also 100% genuine as there is no fear of purchasing a reproduction!

[CineMasterpieces]

I personally don't see the need to invent a new term "Printer's Test Posters" just because of a few comments from some opinionated collectors on this board. They have always been referred to as "Printer's Proofs" and that is what we will continue to call them. Sorry if some of you don't like it. Some people will always want to pay more for these untrimmed posters, and some will always think it is just plain silly to put a premium on them. A Printer's Proof doesn't necessarily have to have written notes on it from the printer or be on a different kind of thicker or glossier paper. Adding a new term to the hobby is unnecessary in my opinion and will just add to the confusion. I don't think Bruce is wrong or anything, I realize he is just trying to be as transparent as he can. I just don't think it is necessary.

I'm sure you are all well aware that we sell Star Wars uncut one sheet printer's proofs from time to time. We have been sent several over the years. One source in particular is one of the printers who was there when they were printed. He refers to them as "printer's proofs". Anyone want to tell him he is inaccurate/wrong?

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I'm still calling them Printer's Proofs as well..

 take that!!
 

[Chop-Top]

I worked as a digital prepress tech for 10 years. Here's the breakdown:

Color Proof = is a thick and usually glossy print that has been produced on a fancy printer that the customer has signed off for color matching purposes only of the final print run. This color proof is usually made during the initial design and typesetting phases of the approval process. This color proof can be of one portion of the art or the entire item if the entire item is color critical. Usually the customer will have some sort of real life item they match to this color proof like a piece of clothing before they sign off on this color proof. Thicker, different paper, untrimmed. Possibly only one made.

Press Proof = The press proof is the final/tweaked run of the press after any adjustments have been made to the inks/paper/press to get the press sheet to match the Color Proof above. Once this is accomplished the customer or the print shop signs off on this finalized Press Proof that then becomes the standard to which the rest of the press run and future press runs will match to. Same paper as final product and untrimmed. Possibly only one made.

Uncut Sheet = Is any regular press sheet that is printed during the regular print one after the press proof is signed off on and has merely been left untrimmed. Same paper as final product. Thousands made.

Printing Plates = The metal or poly plates that the press uses to transfer ink to paper.

As far as the color bars are concerned. These are nothing more than press color diagnostics. The press operator will read these color boxes with a densitometer to check for ink density and proper ink trapping (to makes sure the inks are sticking together and not repelling each other) and make press adjustments if necessary. Again nothing more than tools to create the final product.

Final Note: Any of the above are considered worthless by anyone inside the printing business as they are nothing more than "tools" to create the final product in the same manner that plastic "molds" are created to make action figures. The final product is what's important. Any and all value given to the above items are from people that are just plain ignorant of the printing process and think they are somehow "magical" or are sellers trying to hoodwink gullible buyers. If you have any sense about you RUN FROM ANYTHING THAT SAYS "PRINTERS"  OR "UNCUT" ON IT. IT'S A SCAM.

[Ari]

what confuses people more? Calling them what they are? Or calling them what they are not?
Come on, that's a cop out, who wouldn't understand it if you called them untrimmed?
I wouldn't care except it gives the impression of a one off item, and as such rare, and as such more valuable.
And the fact it's just simply not true.

If people call these proofs, what shall we call ACTUAL proofs?

[Zorba]

If people call these proofs, what shall we call ACTUAL proofs?

Unicorns that shit rainbow sherbet? 

[110x75]

Unicorns that shit rainbow sherbet? 

and that's why we love you Z 

[enki]

I find it amusing that it seems like most (all?) of the buyers deem these nothing more then accidentally "uncut" posters, and that they hold no more value then a properly cut sheet - possibly less so since they are an awkward size which can cause problems for storage and/or framing. And yet most (all?) of the sellers seem to want to keep pushing this terminology, saying it's a valid use.

I think we can all agree that, whether it's an accurate description or not, the sellers will continue to be label them as such, since it makes them sound 'cooler' and more unique, and thus hopefully yield a higher price. It's all marketing fluff, nothing more.

[Neo]

Very interesting and informative breakdown of the printing process you described, Sir Chop a Lot.  

[Chop-Top]

Glad I could help out...

This scam is so pervasive in not just the movie poster world, but the sports collecting world as well. In recent years companies themselves have gotten in on the game by selling "official uncut sheets", etc. Just more fodder for the unwitting public. Some allegory to help illustrate the absurdness of these printers proofs, etc. Car collectors collect cars. They don't collect the robots that made the cars. If they did, they would become "industrial machine" collectors and in that case, since industrial machines are nothing more than modern day "tools", they might as well collect historic sticks and stones used by cavemen. So, next time you see anything that was used in production of the final product that is for sale, think "caveman sticks" and you'll see through the gimmick much easier.

[Zorba]

and that's why we love you Z 

I love you all too man!

[Ari]

Chops comparison might be an exaggeration, unless someone starts collecting the printing machines or something, however, uncut OR printers proofs were obviously never intended to be used as a theatrical advertisement, which is what we collect, sooooooo.... What do you, we, us collect?

Same can be said for a never used, snuck out the back door one of a roll, midnight special really.

Reason I like posters used, dates written, hidden in projection booth for years kinda posters best of all.

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

I doubt most collectors care about the name "printers proof" or their function, e.g. whether they actually were used by the printer for mockups, color testing purposes or identifying flaws.

They value them primarily because (1) they are not fakes and (2) they are in better condition (usually rolled). 

Personally, I find the color bars ugly and the size awkward and unwieldy but would pay more for a "printers proof" of something like the Star Wars Birthday Cake:

[marklawd]

I will consider buying an untrimmed unfolded poster - if the poster is generally found folded - with the intention of taking it to a paper conservation studio for precise trimming. I place no value on the wider margin/colour bars but I will pay a premium for its unfolded condition.

Mark

[skyjackers]

I don't see it as a scam, it's up to the individual if the think it's worth more or not. Personally I don't care and I haven't and wouldn't pay any more for untrimmed posters. Having said that I've recently found some posters that only exist with these colour bars and was more than happy to find them in any form.

[Ari]

It's only a scam if the buyer believes its a printers proof and as such possibly one of a kind.

[Bruce]

It's only a scam if the buyer believes its a printers proof and as such possibly one of a kind.

That's why I expanded my description and changed the name to "Printer's Test" (commonly referred to as "Printer's Proof")

I give the buyer a full explanation and let them decide if they want to buy it.

And if there is anyone anywhere who EVER bought one of these from me thinking it was "one of a kind", they are welcome to return it for a full refund, no matter how many years it has been.

[Chop-Top]

Let me also say that if someone can fake a full size poster, there's nothing stopping them from faking a bunch of color blocks on the margin. Also, there's nothing stopping the original metal printing plates (used for offset printing) from being strapped back on any given printing press and having 10,000 more "uncut sheets" printed in 2012. In fact, if you're looking for authentic vs fake, you're better off going with the final folded product that shows natural aging, wear, folds, etc. than you would if something is rolled with silly color bars. I kirumba what a silly part of this hobby. Spend your money as you wish.

[Chop-Top]

I don't see it as a scam, it's up to the individual if the think it's worth more or not. Personally I don't care and I haven't and wouldn't pay any more for untrimmed posters. Having said that I've recently found some posters that only exist with these colour bars and was more than happy to find them in any form.

That's true in any buying decision. However, the printing industry is very closed loop since it's usually on a B-T-B basis, and the average joe without years of schooling or experience has zero knowledge with which to make sounds judgements about any of the tools used behind the printer's doors and thus making a "knowledgeable" dealer that much more complicit in perpetuating this nonsense.

[Chop-Top]

Chops comparison might be an exaggeration, unless someone starts collecting the printing machines or something, however, uncut OR printers proofs were obviously never intended to be used as a theatrical advertisement, which is what we collect, sooooooo.... What do you, we, us collect?

Same can be said for a never used, snuck out the back door one of a roll, midnight special really.

Reason I like posters used, dates written, hidden in projection booth for years kinda posters best of all.

People do sell and buy printing plates which are strapped directly on the presses so at that point, they are pretty much buying part of the press. Any item used to make the final product at its most basic definition is a tool. That's why I used the exaggerated hyperbole to point out the ridiculousness and wastefulness of this side of the hobby.

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

Let me also say that if someone can fake a full size poster, there's nothing stopping them from faking a bunch of color blocks on the margin. Also, there's nothing stopping the original metal printing plates (used for offset printing) from being strapped back on any given printing press and having 10,000 more "uncut sheets" printed in 2012.

Extraordinarily improbable given the many obstacles, including the following:

(1) Difficulty of finding original printing elements.

(2) Difficulty of arranging printing/hiring printers.

(2) Extreme difficulty of producing indistinguishable copies repros with no defects/color distinctions even with original printing elements (Star Wars A example, ground color is different from original).

(3) True originals would have at least 20+ years of acid-tanning.

(4) Limited market for printers proofs, many (perhaps most) collectors won't buy them for aesthetic reasons.

(5) Limited market overall for relatively small movie poster hobby (more profitable to create fakes in other hobbies, including original art).

(6) Substantial likelihood of being caught by collectors/dealers. You can only pump so many into the market before collectors/dealers become wary.

(7) Likelihood of being caught by studios/sued by studios.  $150,000 penalty per unauthorized copy under US copyright law.

[CineMasterpieces]

We do not claim that Printer's Proofs are "one of a kind". Even when we sold the Star Wars Happy Birthday proof we did not describe it that way. They definitely are much rarer than regular untrimmed one sheets and many collectors do think they are "cooler" and they definitely do place a premium on them. Dealers do not create this demand. There is no scam. When a proof for a great title like STAR WARS is truly auctioned at no reserve, they generally sell for much more because the auction bidders are willing to pay a premium. On the flip side, several years ago when we auctioned printers proofs for bland/garbage titles they sold for practically nothing.

I remember as a child when I saw my first uncut sheet of Topps baseball cards in 1971...........I wanted one immediately!

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Digital pre-press techniques of the last 20 years have almost nothing to do with how proofing was done prior to the digital era.

In teh digital era, you can easily print one-off of whatever you're working on.
In the previous era, this was not possible and when the press was turned on back in the 80s, 70s, or the 20s, you needed to run the press for at least a few minutes to complete the task because the ink needs to run through the machine, the paper roll needs to run through etc etc etc. this usually resulted in at least 20-30 posters being run off and for many printers it could result in 100 or more depending on the type & speed of machine used. Also, just because digital pre-press is available, doesn't mean a particular printer has digital. The printer I used here for years didn't go digital until about the year 2000 due to the cost of getting the new machines and training his press team. Digital being available doesn't mean suddenly all printers used digital

[CineMasterpieces]

add #8 to Mel's post above:

Finding the right kind/quality of paper to match 30+ year old posters is not easy.