Author Topic: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution  (Read 23146 times)

Offline Simes

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Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« on: February 08, 2019, 10:42:19 AM »
Not a good experience this time...

There was a Bond and Beyond sale on Thursday, 7th Feb 2019.

There was one combined Lot offering in respect of Live and Let Die, a set of eight UK FOH stills, numerous b/w US Press Stills, and a UK Local Premiere brochure.  The only item I was interested in, was the brochure.  I went relatively high on bidding, because I knew I would be able to shift on the FOH and Press stills via eBay.

Having won the Lot, upon picking it up from them today, it was abundantly apparent that the UK FOH set was a copy set - and an obviously Bad copy set too with a mottled gloss/matt surface finish and fuzzy typesetting.  Alastair was not available for help so my first fight was with a lady.

Suggesting a part refund, her response was one of an offer of a full refund for the entire Lot and its subsequent re-entry into a future auction whereby, presumably, I would have to go through the whole rigmarole again.

I asked if she would consider a part refund for the dodgy fake items, and I would take the rest.  Her answer was No.  Why, I asked.  Because it’s policy.

I suggested that the value was immediately apparent because there was another Lot (1141) in the same auction which was for a stand-alone Live and Let Die FOH set.  This went for £110.  If this too was not a copy set, then a straight reduction of £110 from my £380 payment would, I believe, have been a fair resolution.

Going back to The Policy, I am supposing the vendor does not dictate to Ewbanks how the items are sold, i.e. to place some items together and others not.  This design remains the preserve of the auctioneer...  So, I asked the lady again as to why a part refund would not be possible whereby, in a later auction, the FOH set could be sold individually.  I don’t think she understood the thrust of the question, much less the policy. 

I decided to take the entire Lot with me thinking I would follow it up when home.  I wrote a mail to Alastair, with whom I thought I had a relationship further to some previously fairly large purchases, asking again, why they could not have taken a part refund, and to place in their next auction, a further stand-alone set of FOH cards?  (Albeit, correctly described)

And the response I got was this. 

"If you had not taken it we would have likely offered the lot to the underbidder at the price you paid and then it would be down to the vendor to decide."

Thereby passing on the same junk, at the same price, to some other unsuspecting bidder.

I am utterly shocked at the laissez faire, shoddy attitude displayed towards their customers.  It seems any old crap will do.

Chaps, I would urge a no-holds-barred approach to getting descriptions out of this bunch and if there is a likelihood of rubbish strewn in amongst the proper items of Combined Lots, to consider your bidding approach.

Offline crowzilla

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 11:16:36 AM »
It always stinks to find dodgy items in an auction lot, but keeping everything or returning everything for a refund is pretty standard practice.
Group lots usually sell at a discount to any individual item contained, so it's hard to say what value is given to any specific item in a lot (even when there is an individual auction for one of the items elsewhere).
The most distressing part is that they would offer the fakes to the underbidder. The proper response would be to refund you entirely, explain the situation to the consignor and offer the real items at a later auction.
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Offline Simes

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 11:26:43 AM »
Thanks for this.

To be fair, the lady offered a full refund with the stance to auction at a later date.  I wasn't sure whether this would be as the same Lot construction, or a different one.

I hoping for a better response from Alastair, but to be honest, this is where it really fell down with, as you say, the attitude of just shunting the shit elsewhere.  Especially bad form for a group looking to become a player in Original Entertainment Memorabilia.

Apparently, my highlighting this has lead to them being unimpressed with My attitude...

Offline alastairmccrea

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 11:33:58 AM »
I thought this may appear online...

As I said during cataloguing quickly I may have missed the printing was slightly off on the Live and Let Die cards. Cataloguing approx 4000 lots solely myself sometimes items are missed especially in group lots. I remember looking at them and thinking the printing was good. Apologies my mistake.

As I said was happy to offer a full refund and could have worked out a future gesture of goodwill (free postage in future auctions etc).

We cant and don't offer part refunds as the earlier comment says its very difficult to know what price each part is worth.

I was asked what we would do if the item was refunded. We would offer it to the underbidder and make them aware of the situation. If they don't want it then it would be down to the vendor to decide the next step. One thing for sure we would re-catalogue it if it was re-offered again.

I always thought I had a good relationship with the buyer.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 11:43:10 AM by alastairmccrea »

Offline Simes

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 11:47:12 AM »
Well, fair play for looking here!

And thank you for responding.

But even if making the underbidder aware of the 'copies' situation and offering at the same price as the winning bid, in this case mine, that still leaves the original winner in a no-win position.  That of the one item wished for in the lot then getting spirited away elsewhere.

The lady suggested a re-auctioning.  You're suggesting a different process; offering to the underbidder.

Had I, hypothetically speaking, accepted the lady's full refund (as seems to be the accepted method according Crow), and awaited the items' relisting later down the line, I would have been disappointed according to your directive.  Thoughts?  Is it worth getting a process nailed down and communicated across the board?

My last point as to cataloguing 4000 items.  I am sorry Alastair.  We are all busy in the world and we all have responsibilities to our Lords, masters and customers.  If there is not time for correct identification, then is it not unreasonable to suggest to the vendor, auctioning off over two auctions?  I am not sure in this day and age saying, I am too busy to do the job properly, is the right thing to do.

Anyway, I don't want to fall out over this.  Suffice to say, Disappointed.  Would like to see better.  And onwards does the world spin.

Offline alastairmccrea

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 11:58:02 AM »
Yes I agree it is a risk in re-offering them to auction in your situation. They may go for less, they may go for more, or the vendor may decide they want them back. That's auctions.

We could only have sold them to the underbidder at the same price you paid for them. The underbidder may have decided they are not worried about the copies and decide to go ahead and buy anyway, maybe not. If you did decide to accept the full refund and the underbidder wasn't interested then it would be down to the vendor to decide the next course of action.

Yes I do agree we are all busy and all trying to keep going in this crazy world but I am trying to improve, make less mistakes and try not to upset people! As strange as it may seem!

I do hope we can move past this and with any lot that I handle it is never my intention to deceive or hide anything.

Offline jedgerley

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 12:47:35 PM »
Would not asking the consignor first if they would adjust the price and also to make them aware of the situation before offering it to the underbidder make the most sense? Seems like the consignor and the original high bidder should be able to have a chance to work it out. I wouldnt think the underbidder would be interested in repros either at the underbidder price.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 12:53:52 PM by jedgerley »

Offline skyjackers

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 02:22:39 PM »
Why would they offer these fakes to the underbidder at the same price as the final bid? Surely that’s wrong for a couple of reasons.

I realise Simes’ frustration and of course there are 2 sides to this story, but it doesn’t put the Auction house in question in a very favourable light.

Offline alastairmccrea

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 02:55:48 PM »
The FOH cards were not what the buyers were after in my opinion and from what I was told on viewing days.

We don't always offer returned lots to underbidders. If the bidding was online on a 3rd party bidding platform we wouldn't have had access to the bidders details anyway. We were just merely suggesting all of the possible options.

In this particular case they would have likely been re-catalogued correctly or returned to the vendor.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 02:59:55 PM by alastairmccrea »

Offline skyjackers

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 03:13:55 PM »
No doubt you're not the first auction house to make an error in a listing and I'm sure won't be the last.

How you deal with the issue is obviously important, especially if you're trying to build a good reputation amongst potential customers. I apprecite it may not always be to everyones satisfaction.

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 03:34:29 PM »
I have to agree that it's not really possible for the auction to take back a partial lot. The items were sold as lot and as Sean and Alistair remark, it's not possible to accurately attain individual values for the pieces and most certainly, I would handle it the same in my auctions, if the item was a consignment.

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Offline Simes

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 03:38:17 PM »
The FOH cards were not what the buyers were after in my opinion and from what I was told on viewing days.

(Sorry to chime in again as I had thought to bow out...  )

What does this mean?

No, they were not the prized item.  But they were part of my, and maybe others' strategy to mitigate some of the expense of said prize.  That strategy for my max bid has now been submarined. 

Suffice to say, it has always to be important to clearly review and catalogue.

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2019, 03:51:49 PM »
from my perspective, I'm not really sure why this is such a big issue.
it's a mistake, the correct methodology was offered (we're happy to take the lot back & refund your money)
even after you took them home.

if this is the worst thing that can happen to someone during the course of life, it's just a small speed bump.

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Offline crowzilla

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 03:52:58 PM »
But even if making the underbidder aware of the 'copies' situation and offering at the same price as the winning bid, in this case mine, that still leaves the original winner in a no-win position.  That of the one item wished for in the lot then getting spirited away elsewhere.

Actually you are in the cat-bird seat, as you are the person who won the item, so it's all on your decision whether the underbidder gets a chance to purchase it at the same exact price you would pay or not.
If the other bidder were being offered the lot at a lesser price you could complain, but that isn't the case here.

You get to say whether you spirit the item away for XXX amount or not. If you choose no, then you can't complain that someone else is willing to pay the exact same price at which you declined an item.
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Offline alastairmccrea

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 03:57:18 PM »
(Sorry to chime in again as I had thought to bow out...  )

What does this mean?

No, they were not the prized item.  But they were part of my, and maybe others' strategy to mitigate some of the expense of said prize.  That strategy for my max bid has now been submarined. 

Suffice to say, it has always to be important to clearly review and catalogue.

As you said everyone bidding on that lot likely had in mind what the other items were worth in there.

Offline redman

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 05:23:36 PM »
Ewbanks "customer service" totally sucks her
Simon bought FAKE items remember

Offline Simes

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 05:25:08 PM »
As you said everyone bidding on that lot likely had in mind what the other items were worth in there.
With respect sir, I didn't say that. 

I had Hoped for and Assumed a worth based on all items being original.  But, we are here talking and discussing because Not all items were original.  This makes the Worth a point for discussion.

Unfortunately I, and maybe others, could not pop down for the viewings.  So, when you say, 'Everyone had in mind..' I would submit that is a far reaching statement bearing in mind you're selling on the www.  Are you suggesting therefore that ALL the bidders for this particular lot were there in person, myself excepting?  'Cos if not, then no, not everyone would know.

Guys, I appreciate now the way in which auctions react after the fact for an unintentional misrepresentation, and to be sure, I will accept the fact that the refund was offered.  I have never actually had this happen to me before, so, lesson perhaps learned.

To qualify again the assumed worth of the items, I had assumed the following and bid accordingly.

Brochure - £220
FOH - £110
US Press stills - £50

Making my bidding to £380.  The FOH are worthless so the brochure has now cost £330.

Anyway, it is Friday, it has been a fairly negative week all round (I was already in a foul mood due to unrelated skiing knee and car accidents, and all the ongoing subsequent infinitesimal arguments with insurance companies), so I am going for a drink.  A large one.

Have a good weekend folks.

Offline redman

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 05:45:39 PM »
I have to agree that it's not really possible for the auction to take back a partial lot. The items were sold as lot and as Sean and Alistair remark, it's not possible to accurately attain individual values for the pieces and most certainly, I would handle it the same in my auctions, if the item was a consignment.

that's life

apples and oranges

Offline redman

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 05:57:28 PM »
Also, it seems so obvious to me, the auction house should get in contact with the vendor, telling him/her that the some of the goods are FAKE, but the winning bidder would like to reach a deal on the NON-FAKE items
jeez

Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2019, 09:15:28 PM »
Yes I agree it is a risk in re-offering them to auction in your situation. They may go for less, they may go for more, or the vendor may decide they want them back. That's auctions.
We could only have sold them to the underbidder at the same price you paid for them. The underbidder may have decided they are not worried about the copies and decide to go ahead and buy anyway, maybe not. If you did decide to accept the full refund and the underbidder wasn't interested then it would be down to the vendor to decide the next course of action.

Looking at this from a completely outsider view, I must say Alistair that Ewbank's doesn't come out looking very good.  Sure, you offered Simes his refund, but with a side of huge disappointment (doesn't get the piece he was clearly gunning for in), and -- potentially screwing the underbidder to boot (really, like we are supposed to believe a major auction house wouldn't be trying discard Simes and simply cash out with the next guy) 

Probably your first mistake is that lady who should have stepped back and said that a manager would be calling with options. Remember the customer is always right, and with social media, poster forums, etc, probably a good idea to simply come to terms with the fact that you sold a fake and its in your 100% best interest to make it right with Simes and eat the 110 pounds discount he was asking for.  I realize its hard to make money, the margins are slim, and people make mistakes... but it goes with the territory.  You'll make it back thumbsup.gif

ps. Not sure i get the free shipping bit as well, as he is evidently in proximity to the auction house.

Offline redman

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 06:24:30 PM »
Looking at this from a completely outsider view, I must say Alistair that Ewbank's doesn't come out looking very good.  Sure, you offered Simes his refund, but with a side of huge disappointment (doesn't get the piece he was clearly gunning for in), and -- potentially screwing the underbidder to boot (really, like we are supposed to believe a major auction house wouldn't be trying discard Simes and simply cash out with the next guy) 

Probably your first mistake is that lady who should have stepped back and said that a manager would be calling with options. Remember the customer is always right, and with social media, poster forums, etc, probably a good idea to simply come to terms with the fact that you sold a fake and its in your 100% best interest to make it right with Simes and eat the 110 pounds discount he was asking for.  I realize its hard to make money, the margins are slim, and people make mistakes... but it goes with the territory.  You'll make it back thumbsup.gif

ps. Not sure i get the free shipping bit as well, as he is evidently in proximity to the auction house.


agree 100%
good idea to look at other items this consigner consigned for other FAKE stuff
i also want to know why Ewbanks thinks it is okay to offer FAKE items to the underbidder ???

Offline crowzilla

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2019, 07:23:26 PM »
I think they should have refunded Simes 100%, told him to keep the items and then offered him 50% off his next purchase as an apology for such an obvious error - unless of course they want to be known as the auction house who sells fakes.
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 09:04:22 PM »
I think they should have refunded Simes 100%, told him to keep the items and then offered him 50% off his next purchase as an apology for such an obvious error - unless of course they want to be known as the auction house who sells fakes.

Havent other action houses/dealers also done the same bait and switch (aka "I didnt know we were offering fakes/forgeries" as well?) Seems something that can / (and does) happen with some regularity from time to time?  hmmm.gif

No one/auction house/auctioneer is perfect. Mistakes can... and do....  happen.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:20:31 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline crowzilla

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 10:16:23 PM »
No one/auction house/auctioneer is perfect. Mistakes can... and do....  happen.

Not true.
Emovie is perfect.

Unless they make a mistake. Then they refund you 100%, let you keep the material, and give you free shipping for life.
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Offline cabmangray

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Re: Ewbanks Fakes / Description / Problem Resolution
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2019, 10:18:20 PM »
I've never dealt with Ewbank's before, but I agree that offering a repro / fake set for auction is never ok, unless the auction house makes it known that the set is in fact, a reproduction, which would make the lot less desirable. Of course mistakes can be made, but what puzzles me is another set was offered as a stand alone lot. Was that set a fake too, or was Simes situation a screw up? Offering to take back Simes lot and reoffering it to the underbidder is just plain wrong, unless the underbidder is made aware that the FOH set is fake.