Author Topic: Are alleged “extreme rip-off” movie poster sales unenforceable under U.S. law?  (Read 5420 times)

guest4955

  • Guest
+ Preliminarily, I’m a retired-for-now attorney but still have a valid/current “inactive” license to practice law in Amazonia, er, the District of Columbia. From 1996-2015, I primarily practiced in employment/labor/human resources law, equally split between advising managers/HR and litigation, including 20(ish) non-jury trials and arbitration proceedings. For reasons too complex to go into, the employment law defense side has tremendous advantages and I/we “won” 95% of the time considering outright dismissal and cheap settlements..

+So I rarely ventured into “contract law” and flat-out lost the one “business contract” arbitration I co-handled with my attorney father back in 2005. (We were robbed! And our client was bonkers to boot!) But I liked and remember to this day much of the Uniform Commercial Code, which all U.S. states have adopted as verbatim law.

+ You “theoretically” can file a lawsuit seeking to revoke/render unenforceable on the grounds of unconscionability any contract. I’ll quote from a 2008 article:

“The unconscionability doctrine is premised on the idea that the law should be fair and should not allow people to be taken advantage of. Unconscionability is used as a shield and not a sword, meaning that it is a defense to liability, not a cause of action for damages or other affirmative relief. While it clearly has its place in modern commerce, the doctrine is both vague and hard to establish. As a result, it should be asserted strategically. The doctrine of unconscionability, codified in Section 2-302 of the U.C.C., permits courts to invalidate whole contracts, or particular provisions in contracts, they find fundamentally unfair. The section provides that:
 
If the court as a matter of law finds the contract or any clause in the contract to have been unconscionable at the time the contract was made the court can refuse to enforce the contract, or it may enforce the remainder of the contract, without the unconscionable clause, or it may so limit the application of any unconscionable clause s to avoid any unconscionable result.                 

Commentators have complained about the doctrine’s imprecision for years, and as a result, courts use the doctrine with considerable restraint. This means litigants must be realistic in using the doctrine, and also should be ready to be perceived as having a weak case, merely by asserting claims under Section 2-302. After all, Section 2-302 is designed not to be the primary tool for avoiding contract enforcement but rather to be a safety net to catch situations that fall outside the other mechanisms.
 
Contexts in which Section 2-302 has been successfully used are quite varied. In one case, a consumer purchased a windshield and the terms of the payment were misrepresented. In another case, after the purchase of faulty pipe, the court found a limitation on liability to replacement and exclusion of consequential damages unconscionable.

guest4955

  • Guest
Well MP Collectors luuurrrve visuals so I created this "mel"odramatic image with my B+ Photoshop skillz:


guest4955

  • Guest
+ If you went down the "unconscionability" road, for starters you'd have to argue successfully that the contract price VASTLY exceeds the "fair market value"of the MP at issue.

+ I'd consult the auction history sections of BOTH www.HA.com (HA) and www.Emovieposter.com (EMP) – eBay’s is too limited - as explained here: www.moviepostercollectors.guide/Valuation.html.

+ The most notorious alleged "rip off" MP auction recently was in UK where a Pink Panther poster auctioned for (£=1.3$):



+ It does indeed VASTLY exceed the "fair market value" of the MP. Here's a typical EMP recent auction:



+ Of course, that would likely be insufficient per se. Assuming the sale was subject to U.S. law, you'd likely have to show the buyer was new/naive to the hobby etc.  girly2.gif

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 10339
    • MoviePosterBid.com only movie memorabilia
+ The most notorious alleged "rip off" MP auction recently was in UK where a Pink Panther poster auctioned for (£=1.3$):



exactly how was the buyer cheated, if the item is an auction and two bidders who themselves don't do their research prior to holding a paddle bid an outrageous price for something??

if anyone robbed anyone, it was the 2 bidders robbing themselves.

where is the auction house cheating anyone?

Movieposterbid.com is the FIRST All-Movie Poster Auction Site. We're not #1, but we try harder
"LIKE" MoviePosterBid.com on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Movieposterbidcom

-------

Offline erik1925

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 20330
exactly how was the buyer cheated, if the item is an auction and two bidders who themselves don't do their research prior to holding a paddle bid an outrageous price for something??

if anyone robbed anyone, it was the 2 bidders robbing themselves.

where is the auction house cheating anyone?

Right on, Rich.

No one is cheating/ripping anyone off here, or elsewhere. The bidders alone create "ovrpriced/rip-off" the scenario when their bids drive a price up, far beyond FMV.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 02:16:38 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

Online Neo

  • Hoarder
  • ****
  • Posts: 4382
    • My photobucket
It's clear when people pay 65x the fair market value of something, they're being ripped off.  In this case, the auction house (assuming there wasn't any house bidding), didn't rip off the buyers.  However, it's good to know that there is a clause that could protect people in such a situation.  Another example is if a person hires someone to install a standard wall mount for a tv, and the labor for one hour they're charged is $7,000, of course they should have some legal standing to say that it's unconscionable to charge someone that much, when the regular rate is probably around $100.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 02:20:06 PM by Neo »

Online marklawd

  • Hoarder
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
Of course Sothebys is not ripping off anyone. No one knows, with the possible exception of the auctioneer, whether the bidders were uninformed or too wealthy to care. I would imagine the latter is most likely. A tradesman seeking an outrageous payment for work undertaken is not a comparable situation.

Mark

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 10339
    • MoviePosterBid.com only movie memorabilia
Of course Sothebys is not ripping off anyone. No one knows, with the possible exception of the auctioneer, whether the bidders were uninformed or too wealthy to care. I would imagine the latter is most likely. A tradesman seeking an outrageous payment for work undertaken is not a comparable situation.

Mark

exactly, on both counts

Movieposterbid.com is the FIRST All-Movie Poster Auction Site. We're not #1, but we try harder
"LIKE" MoviePosterBid.com on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Movieposterbidcom

-------

Online Neo

  • Hoarder
  • ****
  • Posts: 4382
    • My photobucket
A tradesman seeking an outrageous payment for work undertaken is not a comparable situation.

It is the same.  Paying 65x the market value for something applies, regardless of whether it's an auction or a direct sale, with this clause.  It's unconscionable to pay a very inflated price for something, and people should have some legal recourse, if they mistakenly agree to such a deal.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 07:40:14 PM by Neo »

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 10339
    • MoviePosterBid.com only movie memorabilia
here's a question, how come some members think that bidders would have recourse against the auction houses when they are at fault for not educating themselves & bidding some outrageous sum for what should be a low priced item (in their opinion or factual history) and yet they are silent when a result like this one happens at their favored brown-nosing location?

L&H 6x8 news photo sells for $1605 @EMP



surely this photo is 25x to 50x the actual value

I fail to understand why something sold at one venue - at auction - deserves less critique for similar situations at other auction

or even more specifically, that one is excoriated, and the other is cheered

do you think it has something to do with 'bias' maybe?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 03:06:00 PM by MoviePosterBid.com »

Movieposterbid.com is the FIRST All-Movie Poster Auction Site. We're not #1, but we try harder
"LIKE" MoviePosterBid.com on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Movieposterbidcom

-------

Offline redman

  • Collector
  • ***
  • Posts: 631
here's a question, how come some members think that bidders would have recourse against the auction houses when they are at fault for not educating themselves & bidding some outrageous sum for what should be a low priced item (in their opinion or factual history) and yet they are silent when a result like this one happens at their favored brown-nosing location?

L&H 6x8 news photo sells for $1605 @EMP



surely this photo is 25x to 50x the actual value

I fail to understand why something sold at one venue - at auction - deserves less critique for similar situations at other auction

or even more specifically, that one is excoriated, and the other is cheered

do you think it has something to do with 'bias' maybe?

huh? i posted a gif with that post showing my disdain for the bidding result of that item
no bias whatsoever. EMP are great :)

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 10339
    • MoviePosterBid.com only movie memorabilia
huh? i posted a gif with that post showing my disdain for the bidding result of that item
no bias whatsoever. EMP are great :)

not bagging on you redman as an individual, that's why I removed any reference to you. it's a question for the larger community

I'd love to see 'attorney' Mel comment, but he has obviously left the building

Movieposterbid.com is the FIRST All-Movie Poster Auction Site. We're not #1, but we try harder
"LIKE" MoviePosterBid.com on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Movieposterbidcom

-------

Offline redman

  • Collector
  • ***
  • Posts: 631
ok. elvis will be back
i havn't really read this thread but it seems stupid because pink panther madness was a uk sale so wtf can usa do about it ;D
i don't believe anyone thinks bidders should be able to sue auction houses because they bid (way)too much ???
rich idiot bidders are annoying because they can inflate prices for everyone else

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

  • Post-aholic
  • **********
  • Posts: 10339
    • MoviePosterBid.com only movie memorabilia
i havn't really read this thread but it seems stupid because pink panther madness was a uk sale so wtf can usa do about it ;D
i don't believe anyone thinks bidders should be able to sue auction houses because they bid (way)too much ???

we share this opinion

Movieposterbid.com is the FIRST All-Movie Poster Auction Site. We're not #1, but we try harder
"LIKE" MoviePosterBid.com on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/Movieposterbidcom

-------

Online Neo

  • Hoarder
  • ****
  • Posts: 4382
    • My photobucket
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 11:10:44 PM by Neo »

Online Neo

  • Hoarder
  • ****
  • Posts: 4382
    • My photobucket
here's a question, how come some members think that bidders would have recourse against the auction houses when they are at fault for not educating themselves & bidding some outrageous sum for what should be a low priced item (in their opinion or factual history) and yet they are silent when a result like this one happens at their favored brown-nosing location?

L&H 6x8 news photo sells for $1605 @EMP



surely this photo is 25x to 50x the actual value

I fail to understand why something sold at one venue - at auction - deserves less critique for similar situations at other auction

or even more specifically, that one is excoriated, and the other is cheered

do you think it has something to do with 'bias' maybe?

Since "some members..." includes me, as I mentioned my stance on "legal recourse" above, here ya go.

"one is excoriated..." You're probably referring to Mel, since he mentioned how some things often sell higher at a place such as eMovie compared to eBay.  He mentioned how a sale that is 65+ times the market value of something is an "extreme rip off," and used the recent Sotheby's example.  Paying that much higher than market value is, in fact, an "extreme rip off."  He was making a point, with some added legal info.  That does not mean that he, and/or anyone else, is/are required to repeat their stance on every extremely inflated sale that happened, and/or is mentioned here, lest they be labeled as "biased."  That is just ridiculous.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:28:40 PM by Neo »