Mid-auction analysis - OMGs!, LOLs!, WTFs!, whatev....

[MoviePosterBid.com]

"This item was cataloged wrong and we are told is an early 1960s re-issue"

translation = "An expert relayed to us that we had this poster described incorrectly and that it is a 1960s re-issue"

at least that's the interpretation I think should be achieved

[Silhouette]

I don't think the marker pen is evidence enough to say it is not from 1947 - could be coloured pencil, chalk/crayon could be anything - judging it on the pen mark is perhaps a little tough. I think the lack of the map on the back is probably stronger evidence, specially as one has comparison to the only other one previously sold with a map and there seems to be a vividness that is more in keeping with those recognised as a later date.

As I side note, personally I like to see a title as (R??) if the date is actually unconfirmed or unknown rather than leaving it to be discovered in the 'fine print'.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

As I side note, personally I like to see a title as (R??) if the date is actually unconfirmed or unknown rather than leaving it to be discovered in the 'fine print'.

that's not all David, the title of the listing is in BIG letters
An Original 1947 (from the first release of this movie in Belgium) Vintage Theatrical Folded Belgian Movie Poster (measures 10 3/4" x 15 1/4" [27 x 39 cm])

and then in small print
Please do not bid on this poster unless you can accept the uncertainty as to its year of origin.

if an eBay seller had the same text, I don't know one person on this forum who wouldn't be all over the double-speak

either the poster is an original release poster or it is not.
if you don't know, find out
if you can't find out, don't sell it until you can find out.

that's how I run my business and how I always have
I would think these are simple rules to follow for any dealer or collector

[CSM]

I don't think the marker pen is evidence enough to say it is not from 1947 - could be coloured pencil, chalk/crayon could be anything - judging it on the pen mark is perhaps a little tough. I think the lack of the map on the back is probably stronger evidence, specially as one has comparison to the only other one previously sold with a map and there seems to be a vividness that is more in keeping with those recognised as a later date.

As I side note, personally I like to see a title as (R??) if the date is actually unconfirmed or unknown rather than leaving it to be discovered in the 'fine print'.

It sure doesn't look like anything but a proper marker (not a pen, not a coloured pencil, not chalk and not a crayon)

[CSM]

translation = "An expert relayed to us that we had this poster described incorrectly and that it is a 1960s re-issue"

at least that's the interpretation I think should be achieved

By why accept the Heritage statement as canon when no further info is given?  At least Bruce has a little bit of reasoning and caution in his description (even if somewhat flawed)

[paul waines]

It's not 40's, it's a late 50's early 60's release.

If you like the artwork just buy it, it's still an original poster just a re-release, and probably in better nick than one from the 40's would be anyway.

[paul waines]

If you want Bullshit in a description try this listing..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171246337590?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648


He states two of these RE-RELEASE posters were on display at the Leicester Square Odeon for the Premier in 1953..  Ya, right. Would you buy a second hand car from this fellow.

It even states Burton back by popular demand. If anyone buys this they deserve it.



Just repeating this from the other section..

Well this fellow must check out APF, as he's changed his listing...

Still a bit expensive, but hey.  mind, I have one too, and I'm knocking my own.

[Bruce]

That Belgian Casablanca poster IS quite interesting!

As pointed out above, it WAS auctioned at Heritage as R60s in the 2007 July Signature Vintage Movie Poster Auction #665 (but only after it was in the catalog as "1940s First Post-War Release Belgian")

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=665&lotNo=28899#Photo

However, an incredibly similar example (same printed top) was auctioned the following year in the 2008 November Signature Vintage Movie Poster Auction #695 and now it was back to being "1940s First Post-War Release Belgian"

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=695&lotNo=85194#Photo

Two years later it was back again in the 2010 November Beverly Hills Signature Movie Poster Auction #7029 (this was the EXACT same poster as from two years before, (it is typical of posters that "sell" in Signature Auctions to come back again and again) and it was again "1940s First Post-War Release Belgian"

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7029&lotNo=83297#Photo

So obviously their expert had a change of heart between 2007 and 2008 and decided it was NOT "R60s"!

They also auctioned a mapbacked one in their 2005 November Rare Movie Poster Auction #624 and it was "1947 First Post-War Release Belgian"

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=624&lotNo=28273#Photo

That EXACT same poster came back in the 2009 March Signature Vintage Movie Poster Auction #7003 and it was again "1947 First Post-War Release Belgian"

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7003&lotNo=86439#Photo

So it appears that in the eyes of their expert during the years 2005 through 2010, the mapbacked ones are from 1947 and are the first post-war release, but that the non-mapbacked ones are from the "1940s" and are the first post-war release (since they went back and forth on this depending on whether it is mapbacked or not, it is not a simple case of changing his mind).

They also sold a really curious example in their Sunday Internet Movie Poster Auction #161336 on Sep 8, 2013. This one LOOKS like the mapbacked ones, but no mention is made of that so it seems unlikely it could have been mapbacked, given the many other condition details they give. This one is "1947 First Post-War Release Belgian"

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=161336&lotNo=53072#Photo

Earlier in 2013 they sold an example that is clearly NOT mapbacked in their 2013 March 23 - 24 Vintage Movie Poster Signature Auction - Dallas #7072 and NOW the non mapbacked one has become "1947 First Post-War Release Belgian", so it appears that by this year their expert has now concluded that both mapbacked and non-mapbacked are all from exactly 1947.

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7072&lotNo=83798#Photo

Finally, here is the most curious one of all!

They sold one in their 2009 November Signature Vintage Movie Posters Auction #7014 that measures 14" X 22" (it has the same image size as the above, but has extra wide borders) and is identified as "R60s". So it appears that in the eyes of their expert there were mapbacked ones and non-mapbacked ones printed in 1947, and then the movie was re-released there in the 1960s, and at that time they printed new posters, but used the exact same art from the 1947 release, and just added large borders.

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7014&lotNo=89905#Photo

I will do more research on this, to see if I can find out more that either backs up that there were mapbacked ones and non-mapbacked ones printed in 1947, and then the movie was re-released there in the 1960s, or that contradicts it, and depending what I find I will either add to the current one I am auctioning, or close the auction and re-auction it at a later time with more detailed information.

[jedgerley]

Can anyone offer any insight as to how this is possible?
"BIDDER 2" placed a max bid at 170 at 2:59 I watched it live and the auction was at 133.50 (one increment higher than the "BIDDER 1" max bid of 131) then less than a minute later he raised his max bid to 175 and now the auction is at 175!! seems like it is letting him compete with his own bids. 


The same thing happened the day before with the same "BIDDER 2", but he retracted his bid so I messaged him asking him how he made it jump up like that and that I was very unhappy he revealed my reserve price.  He is German and his response was:
"sorry, this was provided. I wanted to finish, actually, another ordered"
 
Is ebay screwing up? or is this guy have a way to compete his his own bids?  And once you retract your bid I thought you werent allowed to bid again on that auction (unless ebay screwed up??) so confuzzled

[Ari]

If it has a reserve I assume you can bid higher until you reach the reserve. Without a reserve it wouldn't go up but just make the max bid higher if other bid. Make sense? And yes it can let people "out" your reserve. But that shouldn't matter should it?

[paul waines]

Also the bids are Proxy bids, so if he has placed a proxy of 170 it will only show the next bid up, which will be the 133.50 then next after his bid will be 175.

[jedgerley]

If it has a reserve I assume you can bid higher until you reach the reserve. Without a reserve it wouldn't go up but just make the max bid higher if other bid. Make sense? And yes it can let people "out" your reserve. But that shouldn't matter should it?

I don't believe that is the case, if it was the case when bidder #1 has a max bid of 131 it should have showed 131 but it stayed at 14 cents which is 5 cents higher than the very first opening bidder.  It didn't matter that he outed my reserve until the next day when he retracted his bid, that is when I wasn't happy, doesn't matter now because he again bid today. I have never seen anyone able to make the price jump by 40 bucks, it should only go up by the appropriate increment.
like i said when he placed a bid of 170 the price stood at 133.50 which is one $2.50 increment. but when he placed the next bid one minute later it jumped 40 bucks.

[jedgerley]

Also the bids are Proxy bids, so if he has placed a proxy of 170 it will only show the next bid up, which will be the 133.50 then next after his bid will be 175.

So he is using a snipe program which has a different ip to raise it up? ok I see how that could work.  Makes sense now I guess.

[jayn_j]

Lee Newman patented a felt-tipped marking pen in 1910.[3] In 1926 Benjamin Paskach patented a "fountain paintbrush"[4] as he called it which consisted of a sponge-tipped handle containing various paint colors. Markers of this sort began to be popularized with the sale of Sidney Rosenthal's Magic Marker which consisted of a glass tube of ink with a felt wick. By 1958 use of felt-tipped markers was commonplace for a variety of applications such as lettering, labeling, and creating posters.[5] The year 1962 brought the development of the modern fiber-tipped pen (in contrast to the marker, which generally has a thicker point) by Yukio Horie of the Tokyo Stationery Company.

My parents owned a photography studio in the 1950s.  Grandparents started it in 1906.  There was a felt tip pen in use there that I recall as early as 1955.  It was old then.  It was a large aluminum item an inch in diameter.  Each end had a different color, red and black covered by a screw on cover.  You filled each end with ink by unscrewing the tip, and you could also buy replacement tips.

So yes, felt tip was in reasonably common use by the forties.  The 1958 reference is probably for the disposable units.

[50s]

I'm with Ari.

But I think the 9 cents bid is some odd anomaly, however, you don't indicate that bid as a bidder # ... why?

It would make sense though if it started out as a regular auction but after the 9 cent bid was made you changed it to a reserve auction

[jedgerley]

I'm with Ari.

But I think the 9 cents bid is some odd anomaly, however, you don't indicate that bid as a bidder # ... why?

I didnt factor in the opening bidder because they really didnt factor into the where the possible problem started. But if Ari is right then "bidder 1" would have caused the price to jump to 131 immediately. It sat for a few days at 14 cents. So I dont believe Ari is correct. Paul's proxy bid scenerio might be correct?? But not sure as of yet. All in all it doesnt matter but seems odd that bidder number 2 was able to make the price jump by 40.

[paul waines]

It can jump as much as you like with Proxy bids. I always use a couple of pence after my main price as sometimes you can win by just that few pence.

[CSM]

If you "bid against yourself" but reach the reserve you WILL increase your bid.  Think of the reserve as another bidder with a higher hidden proxy bid that must be factored in...

[jedgerley]

Ok thanks all. I appreciate the help. What threw me off i guess is when he retracted his bids. Made me think ebay screwed up. All the auctions I have had with reserves this has never happened. I tried to figure it out before my first post but I figured the Borg (apf) would know. Thanks again!

[erik1925]

Well this fellow must check out APF, as he's changed his listing...

Still a bit expensive, but hey.  mind, I have one too, and I'm knocking my own.

I actually contacted him yesterday, after I saw your post, Paul, and gave him some information as well as an image of what the actual first release quad looks like. He wrote back, saying he is selling it for a friend, and was actually appreciative to get the correct info, as he didnt want to be seen as trying to defraud or rip someone off.   

[Silhouette]

I actually contacted him yesterday, after I saw your post, Paul, and gave him some information as well as an image of what the actual first release quad looks like. He wrote back, saying he is selling it for a friend, and was actually appreciative to get the correct info, as he didnt want to be seen as trying to defraud or rip someone off.   

Seems reasonable, his feedback doesn't show a poster being sold before that one.

[paul waines]

Don't forget, this one was outside the cinema in Leicester square in 1953.... er late 50's....er make that early 60's...

posters worth about £80-120...  he'll be lucky to get half of what he wants. 

[erik1925]

Don't forget, this one was outside the cinema in Leicester square in 1953.... er late 50's....er make that early 60's...

posters worth about £80-120...  he'll be lucky to get half of what he wants. 

I saw that he kept his uber high price, too, Paul. 

It might take him a couple times of it sitting there, not bought, before the seller (or the friend that owns it), brings that price Way down.

[paul waines]

He may need a gentle nudge Jeff...

[Silhouette]

Don't forget, this one was outside the cinema in Leicester square in 1953.... er late 50's....er make that early 60's...

posters worth about £80-120...  he'll be lucky to get half of what he wants. 

Now if it was outside Berkley Square it may have been worth it...great little number this

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xTeiYN_Vq6E" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/xTeiYN_Vq6E</a>