Dave and the Cinemaster-profits

[Zorba]

It is the mentality of the buyer. I had a Batman Begins advance listed quite sometime ago for 59 or 79 can't remember, but I got a mail stating a competitor had the title for 250 and thus implying there must be something wrong with mine.

It is exactly what I would have thought a few months ago when I started out. This is one tough racket for a newbie.

For a newb or anyone else for that matter poster shopping on Ebay is not so easy. They see Cinemasterpieces as a trusted dealer. The one they are sure of. CM has written the only helpful guides that the newb has read so far so when he sees that they are listing the same poster for $100 to $200 more its only natural for them to assume that the far far less expensive poster is a fugazi. After all "If its too good to be true"...
 
It takes experience with time, ALOT of research and a few failures along the way to be able to with some success sort through all the crap involved with poster collecting.


P.S. Thanks Dale for the link to this forum in your Ebay emails  ...I love the posters too!

[50s]

Each time I read Dave's statement in his listing:
"A long time can go by without one of these coming up for sale."
I feel this:
- That I've just been lied to or have again had attempted to be misled  - to me 'can' is clearly seen as a blatant escape clause (thus the statement means nothing), not something I would not notice and later argue over semantics...
- Do I trust anything else said in the advert or seen on the rest of the page?... I often look for a reason on a page not to trust someone, be it one feedback comment or whatever.
- Would I trust this person, for example would I risk going and investigating his website?
- I feel sorry for newbs, (like I once was) who make a decision by trusting what they read and seeing a flashy page design to support their decision of trust.

As a separate matter regarding the big markup,
- Would the buyer buy again from the seller once they realise they had been fleeced and thus they can't trust the seller to do fair deals. People like to trust a seller, they don't necessarily want to do hours of research. Would they bad mouth the site/seller on blogs, facebook everywhere...?, especially if the extra money paid would have made a big difference in their lives?

Looking at the buyers profile, he has only a feedback of 41, the first poster purchase being a repro print from another seller, and the second poster purchase, Dave, being a true original movie poster dealer.

 

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

Legally, it's just "puffery" - not-to-be-taken-seriously hype - "the world's greatest pizza," "you won't find a better deal," etc.

Y'all need to take a few puffs of some good stuff and chill....

[CSM]

Is THAT what happens to your skin when you smoke too much of the sticky-icky-icky?

[Dr Hackenbush]

Yup.  She's really only 25 

[Zorba]

Legally, it's just "puffery" - not-to-be-taken-seriously hype - "the world's greatest pizza," "you won't find a better deal," etc.

Puffery Mel?...I clicked the link. ...Puffery....such that no reasonable person would take them literally

So you are saying that most people who shop on ebay for movie posters are that knowledgable about movie posters that they would know that Cinemasterpieces was just making stuff up?...Interesting.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Zorba.. one thing is that buyers do have to take responsibility for themselves. Like Mel said "world's best pizza". If I believed every pizzaria that had such a claim on the window, I'd be trying to figure out which of the 10s of thousands of pizza parlors is the real #1 & which are all the #2s. newbie or not, it is the buyer's responsibilty  to find the knowledge that educates. Dave's items are listed at what's called "retail prices". If you go to most any brick and mortar "gallery format" poster store, the prices are probably about the same. Just because the items are listed on the net as well doesn't change that fact. If you want Casino Royale right now, and want to be sure of getting an original, Dave is providing that service. If you want to get educated and find Dale.. that's on you, not Dave.

[50s]

The pizzerias show the statement because it generates income for them. Otherwise they would use the advertising space for other income generating stuff like their specials or whatever. Lying clearly works. A pizza is a convenience purchase, not something you do a thorough investigation of and that advantage is taken from some individuals.

Difference is that only Dave is making that claim, not other dealers (except for one eBay copy cat). It is one of many supportive informations in his advertisement. If Christies said something was rare, but others were being regularly sold on their premises, or down the road, their reputation would surely be damaged. I am sure they wouldn't be so stupid...

I agree the buyer should shop around for price, if they are interested in saving some money, but to be lied to (eg of it's rarity) is something completely different.

[marklawd]

.. one thing is that buyers do have to take responsibility for themselves. ..

Exactly. Everyone has to accept responsibility for their own actions and if you are a new entrant to a hobby you need to educate yourself. You learn from your  mistakes. When I started collecting seriously 15 years ago I bought a lot of new-release posters over a one or two year period from one of the most knowledgeable poster dealers there is. I gradually realised I could buy the same posters much cheaper elsewhere but I didn't consider I had been ripped off. Quite the reverse - I considered the dealer my mentor - he was incredibly helpful in answering my questions and I gained invaluable knowledge and confidence.  

Good luck to Dave. He's got a great business model and a great website. I never buy any of his fixed price items because I personally don't want to pay the money he asks but I do participate in his 99 cent start auctions. His customer service is exemplary.  

Christies - I've been going to their poster sales and previews in London since they started and they routinely misdescribe lots. Their reputation isn't damaged.

Mark

[Zorba]

Zorba.. one thing is that buyers do have to take responsibility for themselves. Like Mel said "world's best pizza". If I believed every pizzaria that had such a claim on the window, I'd be trying to figure out which of the 10s of thousands of pizza parlors is the real #1 & which are all the #2s. newbie or not, it is the buyer's responsibilty  to find the knowledge that educates. Dave's items are listed at what's called "retail prices". If you go to most any brick and mortar "gallery format" poster store, the prices are probably about the same. Just because the items are listed on the net as well doesn't change that fact. If you want Casino Royale right now, and want to be sure of getting an original, Dave is providing that service. If you want to get educated and find Dale.. that's on you, not Dave.

With most of that I agree. Cinemasterpieces is like the online 7-11 of original posters. If you want an original and cant be bothered or are too lazy to research your purchase they are the quick and easy way to be sure you get one.

I just do not agree that the line in question is puffery as defined.

Just to be sure where Im coming from. I see most of you know each other one way or another and Im not trying to be a pain in the ass. I do not begrude anyone making money on posters or onything else for that matter. Its called business.  It would be hard to run a business selling things at cost. Im not afterall a communist and I do believe in a free market.
Im just posting as a poster collecting rookie who has made many a mistake the last few months.
Even with hours of research I have made dumb mistakes. This is why Im glad I found this board along with a couple of others like it. Its a great tool in my poster buying quest. Alot of information and experience to be had. 
This thread in itself has been very helpful. It has affirmed all the time I have spent on research was not wasted as I have yet to buy a pizza for $200.

[Bruce]

I know where you are coming from Zorba.

And I see the other side of it. I see people coming to me with items to consign, and I sometimes have to explain to them that they overpaid by a factor of ten, and they are really sad, and they become a little more cynical, and a lot less trusting.

Some people think that "Buyer Beware" is the way of the world, and some don't.

Me, I like sleeping well at night. I know there are next-to-no collectors or consignors out there who have the slightest negative thing to say about me, and I am proud of that.

To each his own.

Bruce

[brude]

So, Zorba...as a self-professed rookie who has learned some tough lessons since entering the hobby and has found this forum (and others) helpful, keep on asking the questions.  We'll help steer you in the right direction by dispelling myths, discouraging bad purchases, authentication, etc. etc.

Dave has a different business model than Bruce and Rich and others.  And, like Mark says, his 99 cent auctions are outstanding.  He doesn't misrepresent his items, he continues to hone his reputation by offering a wide selection of beautiful posters and providing excellent customer service.

And lately -- on Ebay -- a long time can go by before before you can find a seller like Dave, in any condition...
(especially since Bruce and Rich left).   

[Carson]

Difference is that only Dave is making that claim, not other dealers (except for one eBay copy cat). It is one of many supportive informations in his advertisement. If Christies said something was rare, but others were being regularly sold on their premises, or down the road, their reputation would surely be damaged. I am sure they wouldn't be so stupid...

Without any tone or wise guy attitude, 50's, may I ask honestly how long you've been collecting?
If you'll recall that thread on NSF when you were speaking at length about Andy's poster authentication service, I have to say, truthfully, I have never heard someone speak at greater length on any forum with less knowledge or experience of the subject they were discussing. It was a truly rare instance. Multiple people attempted multiple times in that thread to explain this to no avail.

Again, that's not to create stir but an honest annoyance when people state assumptive views without knowledge of what they're talking about. So, with full respect, I wanted to ask, in this instance, 50s, when you say "Christies would surely have their reputation damaged" would you say that is surely a fact or an assumption stated as fact? When you say "Christies wouldn't be so stupid" I'd say, ironically, that reads as a new collectors traditional need to judge and vent and less about the facts as they relate to Christies. Have you bought from Christies by chance?

[Carson]

Some people think that "Buyer Beware" is the way of the world, and some don't.

Me, I like sleeping well at night. I know there are next-to-no collectors or consignors out there who have the slightest negative thing to say about me, and I am proud of that.

I believe the point is simply "Buyer Be Smart".
As Angleo made that point well, and Rich, Mark, Chris, Ted, myself and others have agreed, the responsibility is with the buyer to learn the ropes and buy within their means. That's in no way  to dismiss the seller's need to be ethical. I feel it's simply to say Buyer Be Smart. Learn the ropes and enjoy original posters more and blame others less.

[Ari]

reminds me of MILK, (and other things) -  a friend of mine worked in a factory where they bottled milk, they had twqo brands, the generic brand (cheap) the fancy brand (expensive) the only difference was the design on the carton.
All the milk came out of the same vats.
Another factor, I have found, is sometimes you can list a poster for $10 and hope it goes up, no sale, then relist at $30 and get bids. Sometimes people really believe if it costs more its worth more.

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

I have to say, truthfully, I have never heard someone speak at greater length on any forum with less knowledge or experience of the subject they were discussing.

[kauaitx]

I had been intermittently watching this thread, wanting to let the new members with salient points regarding Lieberman's business practice drive the discussion and get to the heart of the matter.  To 50's and Zorba, there are many, many more people whose conclusion about cinemasterpieces is the same as yours than there are those who defend his business practice.  We've just done this many times already on NSFGE with threads calling him out and with his ultimately scrambling to put a spin on things to do damage control.

But I'm starting to see things getting personal against the ones bringing up the issue by some more established collectors.  Getting personal in arguments is Lieberman's tactic, not yours.  If you want to be persuasive, use reasoning, lest you want to sink to his level and drive away the very people we've been trying to help on these forums.  It is to Lieberman's advantage to have you do his work for him and intimidate away collectors who ask probing and revealing questions that unravel his business schemes.

As for those defending the general business practice of selling something for whatever price you want, that's not the issue.  I always see this argument as a defense, mostly by dealers or by collectors who sell.  It seems to me that this occurs because dealers and sellers start to worry that this issue will project onto them or the criticism will transfer to them and thus start to affect the prices they set in their own business.  This discussion, or any of the other prior discussions about Lieberman, isn't about you or any other dealer or seller.  It's about cinemasterpieces and his business practice.  If other dealers and sellers, who don't do what Lieberman does but who always interject with the "I have the right to sell whatever I want" argument, can remember that it isn't about you, you'll see what 50's and Zorba are trying to get at.

And this whole "buyer beware" and it's "all ultimately the buyer's responsibility" schtick.... There's an essay on this one.  But I'm going to leave it at this for now:  If this were completely true, there would be no legal accountability for fraud or false advertisement and the swindling of people out of their money through lying business schemes.  And none of us would have any grounds to complain about bootleg posters or anything fake at all.  Not the least of which is the recent Universal Horror posters scam.  It's the buyers' fault for being taken in, correct?  It's the new collector's responsibility for recognizing false advertisement about the rarity and investment quality of a poster, right?  It's a good thing people who care about truth and authenticity don't think this way, or else there'd be no movie poster forum or movie poster authenticating site....

I'd add more in this thread, but I have two deadlines to meet, one of them with April 15th.

But, I do want to draw everyone's attention to the most enlightening Doh! statement in this thread, the one that made me want to sing hallelujah, light firecrackers and get jiggywithit:

Dave can do what Dave wants.. as long as he isn't stealing, perpetuating fraud or driving my car..

Wow, that pretty much sums up Dave Lieberman to a T.   Nice work, Rich.  You've managed to summarize over six years worth of issues regarding Lieberman in one sentence.  



Jeannie

[CineMasterpieces]

hello jeannie!.....my favorite hater! Welcome to the party!

still crazy after all these years I see.

I love how she calls it......my "business schemes".

note to new arrivals.......if you ever catch jeannie using multiple aliases to bash and spread outright lies about you (like I did over 5 years ago).....don't bring it to everyone's attention and embarrass her......or she will stalk you until the day you die.....like she is doing with me.

get over it already jeannie, please.

[Bruce]

Will you two just get a room already? I can feel the love!



Bruce

[brude]

                                                                                 

[wonka]

But I think it hurts Dave more than he thinks it helps, or is humorous to him. For instance, how many people won't buy from him because of the line? Or what it does to his online rep.

I agree, I know a few people who are not forum members and have no interest in collecting hard core, but the few posters they have bought, they avoid Dave's stuff because of the misleading statements in question, which one of my friends said was silly and annoying.  But Dave is amused by this (or so he claims) and seems to be less concerned with garnering new customers or his public perception on forums like this, which is a shame.

CM has written the only helpful guides that the newb has read so far so when he sees that they are listing the same poster for $100 to $200 more its only natural for them to assume that the far far less expensive poster is a fugazi. After all "If its too good to be true"...

I agree with sentiments in line of buyers doing their own research, but at the same time, you nail it here, Zorba.  The scare tactic is mostly bait, especially with common and recent posters like Watchmen.

Zorba.. one thing is that buyers do have to take responsibility for themselves. Like Mel said "world's best pizza". If I believed every pizzaria that had such a claim on the window, I'd be trying to figure out which of the 10s of thousands of pizza parlors is the real #1 & which are all the #2s. newbie or not, it is the buyer's responsibilty  to find the knowledge that educates. Dave's items are listed at what's called "retail prices".

Sorry, Rich, I am not getting the bulk of what you are saying here in terms of the discussion at hand.
Your pizza metaphor simply does not work because a pizza place is not claiming that "a long time can go before you find more pizza out there" like Dave is with his Casino Royales.  Second, a pizza parlor is not charging $155 for a large pepperoni pie, when a parlor across the street is selling for $20.  Also, your version of "retail" isn't jiving with mine...but whateva.

With most of that I agree. Cinemasterpieces is like the online 7-11 of original posters. If you want an original and cant be bothered or are too lazy to research your purchase they are the quick and easy way to be sure you get one.

I just do not agree that the line in question is puffery as defined.

7-11!  Man, if their amazing slurpees were as much as Dave's Casino Royale, not sure they would stay in business.  
Of course its not puffery, its just untrue.

And this whole "buyer beware" and it's "all ultimately the buyer's responsibility" schtick.... There's an essay on this one.  But I'm going to leave it at this for now:  If this were completely true, there would be no legal accountability for fraud or false advertisement and the swindling of people out of their money through lying business schemes.  And none of us would have any grounds to complain about bootleg posters or anything fake at all.  Not the least of which is the recent Universal Horror posters scam.  It's the buyers' fault for being taken in, correct?  It's the new collector's responsibility for recognizing false advertisement about the rarity and investment quality of a poster, right?  It's a good thing people who care about truth and authenticity don't think this way, or else there'd be no movie poster forum or movie poster authenticating site....

You nail it here, Jeannie.  Well spoken.

Dave, whenever you access your more-than-usual-arrogant mode, why do you sound like Biff Tannen from Back to the Future, only much less entertaining?  I guess you wouldn't throw some kid's ball on the roof and laugh at him as you walk away, you would just run over it with your Hummer...    

[brude]

                                                                           

[CineMasterpieces]

Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?

[wonka]

Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?

Good, although the scene with you berating your younger self about not having a safe is funnier.

[Ed_209uk]

There's another David Lieberman out there who's authored some books with very choice names:



and



Check Amazom if you want to pick them up...


Sorry Dave