"Hidden Reserve" Auctions

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

The topic came up here:

http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,6038.0.html

What do you think of them?

[50s]

They are diabolical. They enrage me. Why be laughed at in your face when told your bid sucks.

[Through the Stones]

To me, and my limited budget, they say, 'I know what I have and what it's worth and that's what I want for it...' so I just don't bid because I probably can't afford it.  I really do like to bid and hope I catch a deal and if it's not to be, than so be it.  The title will turn up again and I can be patient.  I live in a condo right now anyhow so I can't display anything at the moment.

I understand as a seller wanting to make the most on the piece too though, I just don't all that mad over it being a reserve.  I just won't bid.

[Ari]

If I don't bid, and win and get a bargain every day I die, it's a disorder I was diagnosed with, it's sad, so these evil sellers I consider murderers or at least they attempt murder.
It's the same as showing a starving child a bowl of soup and snatching it away.

[eatbrie]

I will never bid on them.  If the seller cannot tell me what he wants for a given piece, fuck him, I don't have time to play his little game.  Be honest and say what you want.

T

[Silhouette]

Don't they have reserves auction in the art world?

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

Hidden reserves are nothing but a "variant" of the ol' bait and switch:



Stores employ this tactic all the time in "Black Friday" sales.  They advertise a ridiculously low price on certain items but then only have a handful to sell at the location.  Most shoppers are disappointed when all the good deals are instantly sold out but they stick around anyway to buy other stuff.  

As far as comparisons to live art auctions, see this article:

One specific major difference between eBay and the Sotheby's world is that auction houses like to start the bidding at artificially low amounts, to encourage activity.  This is important in a room full of 125 people bidding on a few hundred lots, but has nothing to do, really, with a site swarming with millions of users and items.  Low starting bids work in a live auction, without selling any lots for a pittance, by the use of reserve prices (which are not always even kept secret).  Reserves work in this context because they're a long-accepted and still well-tolerated part of high-end auctioneering practice; people are there at the auction, spending time they've budgeted for this purpose, part of which is the social, bid-warring game of showing off and hobnobbing, for collectors, and simply doing business for dealers; things proceed in a linear fashion (the lots are not all up at the same time, competing for bidder attention); and there is no way to game the system, to sneak in a last minute bid - the auction for each lot keeps going until the action stops.

None of that applies to eBay, other than some inexperienced buyers get excited about bid-warring as if at a live auction and waste a bunch of money (much of it that of people who eventually outbid them) until they learn better.  Eventually, any serious eBayer learns about bid sniping.....

[Bruce]

The way I see it, you have to look at the potential number of serious bidders who will be "fooled" by the "competition" and go higher than they might have vs the potential number of serious bidders who will be annoyed by the reserve to not bid at all. If you think the first group is greater than the second, then go for it.

[enki]

Unless it's something I desperately want and can't expect to get elsewhere, I refuse to partake in reserve auctions on eBay.

If the seller wants to sell something, they need to make it clear how much (or little) they are willing to sell it for. Not play games.

[Ari]

But... What if it's a low reserve and all you bargain hunters don't bid, and so it ends with Jo bids, but the reserve was less than you would have been extremely happy to pay for it?

Why not out a low bid in and seea. Not much of a game, it only takes a second to push the button.

Ps I don't care, I have never run a reserve auction in my life, can't remember if I bid on one or not, never thought about it.  Just surprised people give a shit about something tha matters not at all and especially some seem sort of offended or insulted or put out or something.

[Mirosae]

I don't see why this is such a big deal. I consider these a sign that the seller knows  his/her absolute ''minimum''. Not sure why it is such a problem or why it causes such a stir. It is a seller's choice.  Personally I dont care.  I will pay what I want to pay, if that fits the seller then we have a deal,  if not, fine by me too. At the end of the day, when you bid it is all game and a bit of a gamble, you just need to know your numbers.

ADDITIONAL:  Not sure if you care to know, but to me it is far worse having to pay  HA's  BUYERS PREMIUM.. in my very humble opo

[paul waines]

I have to say Ari and Rosa have it.

I always bid on hidden reserve auctions, it takes no time at all. I throw a number in, if I win it good, if not, there's far too many posters out there to be wound up over one, so I move on to the next.

If it's something outstanding I must have, I'll put a good bid in.  I'm glad you guy's don't bid on these, it's more for me...

[erik1925]

I also dont know why this is such a big deal. If an item has a reserve that is actually more than a buyer would have bid anyhow, then there is no harm no foul, no game. I have bid on a few of these types, as well. If my high bid didnt make the little, blue "reserve not me" sign go away and change into the "Reserve met" notice, then I know that particular poster is going for more than i wanted to pay. End of story.

If i choose to "try again" then that is my option. And let's say your bid does meet the minimum... there is still always that possibility that you will be outbid in the last 30 seconds anyway.

And as David indicated above - in fine art auctions, there are many times when a minimum reserve has been set by a consignor.  I have attended quite a number of gallery auctions here in LA in which a piece of art has a min. reserve. This is the norm and no one ever accuses the consignor of playing games or trying to fool potential buyers/bidders.

I'm confused as to why the same philosophy is looked at differently (and down upon) when it comes to high end or more rare posters, listed on ebay in this same fashion.

And in Schan's Ansin Phantom auction, he also has a BIN price listed. Hit that button and it is all yours. 


 

[Silhouette]

Hidden reserves are nothing but a "variant" of the ol' bait and switch:

Stores employ this tactic all the time in "Black Friday" sales.  They advertise a ridiculously low price on certain items but then only have a handful to sell at the location.  Most shoppers are disappointed when all the good deals are instantly sold out but they stick around anyway to buy other stuff.  

Bollocks. Bait and switch? Simple retailing marketing. The name of the 'game' these days is to get people in the store, so provided they are not offering NO products with that discount then I simply doubt there are shoppers today are really expecting the entire store to be 80% off (for instance) - for the most part those adverts will say "From 80% off..." or "T Shirts from $1..."

If I sell property (house) at auction there is no way in hell I am not going to have a reserve on it, why should I? I have either an expectation of what I want for it or a minimum return I need to get. If I have miss-read the market and the reserve isn't met well lesson learned, but if one bidder turns up and puts in a lo-ball bid and wins it because there was no reserve then I sure would be the fool.

I've also bought at auctions where items have a reserve, as I didn't know the reserve before I started to bid I had already set a ceiling that I would max my bids at, if my max bid doesn't make the reserve well such is life, I didn't lose any money on it. But if my bids (max or otherwise) are higher than the reserve then it's game on.

Sure there are some people (say, on eBay) who have unrealistic expectations for what their product is worth and if it doesn't sell (hopefully) it is lesson learned and they will adjust for the next auction, if it does (sell) then they were right - happy buyer happy seller.

EDIT: Bugger: Forgot to add that there was a no reserve auction(s) here, starting at $0.01 http://goo.gl/MNJBE  

[MoviePosterBid.com]

while hidden reserves may be an aggravation, there is nothing wrong with them

however, there are more than a few items listed on ebay right now, with reserves, where the opening bid is well more than the item is worth already, so what could the reserve possibly be???

[guest8]

I think what Bruce said sums it up well enough .. As a seller you are looking to draw in the most people and hopefully be the center of a bidding war! If you think by placing a reserve on an auction with a higher BIN option is the way to do that then go for it. Personally I think Schan's going at it all wrong .. But hey .. who am I.. Oh yeah .. I'm one of the people that sold the print in question for over $3k on eBay. But that's not to say he will not sell it .. no one has the 100% perfect way to do things. I just know what has worked for me and what I have seen work for other sellers.

[Bruce]

What I am missing here is what is lost in having the exact same auction, but with a $3,000 opening bid and a $3,750 buy it now.

Anyone who was never going to pay $3,000 won't bid, but were they REALLY going to get "auction fever" after a bunch of "reserve not met" bids and then change their mind? And THIS way, anyone thinking of buying it has to weigh up whether they want to wait through the entire auction to "save" $750, or just pay the $3,750 and have it for sure (the same dynamic is not there with "reserve not met", because they don't know what the reserve is).

I KNOW this is not what Schan is doing or would do, but there were several major eBay sellers who would do these kinds of auctions, and then have a buddy enter a bid of $2,900 (one bid under the reserve), so that if anyone DID get sucked in to bidding after they were "outbid" they might well end up bidding $3,000, and think "Well there was that other guy who would have paid $2,900".

[Muddyfunster]

Yep, I rarely bother. Usually a waste of everyone's time.

If you have a fixed price then list it at that. Absolutely no point in putting it in an auction.

[Charlie]

What I am missing here is what is lost in having the exact same auction, but with a $3,000 opening bid and a $3,750 buy it now.

I think it cost more to start it at $3000... Right?

[Bruce]

I think it cost more to start it at $3000... Right?

I think that has not been true for some time, but of course you would have to ask someone who sells there!

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

This is Exhibit A in the case against hidden reserve auctions. The seller - I wonder who? - started it off at a seemingly reasonable $500 but subsequently rejected several bids exceeding four times the starting bid and rejected a final bid equal to five times the starting bid.  

[oldposterho]

I sure hope you guys are right about the "value" of these Mondo, etc. posters...

As for hidden reserves, I'll usually toss a bid at it, 9 times out of 10 I'm the only one doing it so you never come close to finding out what it was.  I've found that some sellers are pretty reasonable about their reserves and for whatever reason just feel the need to have one.  The sellers that get me are the ones who list the same item for months on end with what must obviously be a ludicrous reserve (**cough**whitezombielobbycard**cough**).  FFS, just say how much you want for it.

--Peter