Probable solution to Woodstock Style C one-sheet poster mystery!

[Zorba]

P.S. I hope you guys appreciate all the effort Todd Spoor and others have put into this. No one is getting rich off of this, and they could all just forget about trying to "get things right" and just list fakes as real like SOME sellers do.

It is the efforts of Todd (and everyone else who tries to get to the bottom of things) that has done so much to improve this hobby.

Bruce

I for one do appreciate it! and I also know that there are others who share that sentiment.

In the course of my travels I have found it quite disgusting that there are certain dealers who try to block efforts such as these at every turn.

[Cj]

Whatever the outcome, i just want to say good job to Bruce and Mel for taking the extra effort in getting the answers for the poster community.

[CSM]

P.S. I hope you guys appreciate all the effort Todd Spoor and others have put into this. No one is getting rich off of this, and they could all just forget about trying to "get things right" and just list fakes as real like SOME sellers do.

It is the efforts of Todd (and everyone else who tries to get to the bottom of things) that has done so much to improve this hobby.

Bruce

And it's great advertising for MPgrading 

[brude]

Mel, Since I’m the one who supplied you with the Style B image, and have been reassuring you offlist that Todd won’t tear your Style C to shreds, it would hardly be fair if I didn’t send my Style B to CSI MPGrading to help with the comparison! It will take a while longer to get there, though, as I’m in the UK.

Paul

This offer is worth highlighting.  I don't know Paul ( to APF, BTW) but I am quite impressed by the way he jumped into the fray.
With all the petty squabbling we see, this kind of selfless gesture makes me proud to be a member of the poster-collecting community.
  mate.  I look forward to your participation here at APF.

[movieposterstudio]

Thanks for the welcome, Brude. I post very occasionally on MOPO and NSFGE, but up until now have only been admiring APF from afar As Bruce can attest, I get quite wrapped up in the authentication side as part of the general history of movie paper, not to mention the crazy ways publicity departments behave past and present. And as people have said on another thread, collecting in the pre-internet days was very often a stab in the dark, so the ability to have these sorts of discussions with so many people involved at the same time is a real boon.

Paul

[brude]

Awesome, Paul.  We can use all the authentication knowledge our members can offer.
Helps keep this hobby real.
 

[brude]

Just read this on MoPo, from Tod Spoor of MPGrading.
It's been up for about 2 hours. I'm sure he won't mind me posting it here in it's entirety.

Simply titled "Woodstock Style C Results"

"Hello MOPO,

The results from the Forensic testing is in. The Woodstock style C NOT real!!! You called it from the beginning Bruce! I want to thank the 5 Dealers/Collectors that sent in either their Style B or Style C Woodstock posters for comparison testing. I will be returning them to you tomorrow.

Below you will find an abbreviated test results. I will have a more detaile report along with pictures of the staining up on our website hopefully by tomorrow. www.mpgrading.com


Table 1. Fiber Identification of B-Style
Softwood bleached kraft – Hard Pine (Except Red & Scotch)
Hardwood bleached kraft – Redgum, Sycamore, Yellow-poplar, Blackgum, Maple
Coating flakes are yellowish
Appears to be a Southern Mix
Spot test implies this sample is most consistent with paper from before the late 1980’s.

Table 2. Fiber Identification of C-Style
Softwood bleached kraft – [Spruce and/or Hemlock], Hard Pine (Except Red & Scotch)
Hardwood bleached kraft – Populus spp., Birch
Hardwood bleached sulfite – Populus spp.
Coating flakes are yellowish
Appears to be a Northern Mix
Spot test implies this sample is most consistent with paper from the late 1980’s and
after.
Analyzed by WJR
Quality review by JML
Date(s) of testing September 16 – 19, 2011


Regards
Todd Spoor
MPgrading"

[ddilts399]

I'm still not sold on this testing stuff. I need more information I guess, either on the paper industry or forensic industry. Wouldn't paper compounds be different based on where it was bought and made?


Most consistent with to me sounds like my morning forecast, 50% chance of rain today.

[Bruce]

Dale

Paper used to print real movie posters was very similar from the 1930s to the mid 1960s. At that time they went to a completely different paper stock, that was glossier (my bet is they did so because the new paper did not smudge every time someone handled it, because the glossier stock was much more smudge resistant).

I wish this had happened on a single day, but it was a slow process over a few years, and on some titles there are both glossy and "flat" versions, and I have received both on one title from a single theater find, so I think both were made at the same time as the printers slowly switched to the new paper.

Sometime in the 1980s the printers again shifted, this time to an even glossier paper that had slight gloss on the back. You can tell the difference between the early 1970s posters and early 1990s posters simply by feeling them. This is why I said the suspect Woodstock poster did not seem like 1970 paper to me, and that I thought it likely 1990s or later. Now Todd's findings confirm my own personal experience.

I know that those who bought the suspect Woodstocks will desperately try to keep saying they are real, but selling them now (after Todd's verification) will "taint" anyone offering them.

Given that the fake sellers now have endless copies of it, I suspect they set up a new account so that they could first sell a LOT of these fakes with the good phony "back story" and now they are just offering them directly, trying to catch the unaware eBay buyers who don't read these forums.

Of course, there is a fourth paper type. This is the paper used to print the minty white inserts and lobby cards, and some other fakes. This paper is glossy on front AND back in a way unlike any real movie paper ever used.

Bruce

[ddilts399]

I'm not questioning if these are fakes or not, I have not seen them on hand. Just the reasoning behind it; the results are a little shaky in my head as there is no way you can date an exact print date on anything these are ballpark figures.

The question is, where are these getting printed at. If they are that clear, they are not being run off a digital image, these are not $5K HP printers they are being run on. This is a HUGE issue, and I mean HUGE. Every poster worth anything from late 80's to date you would not be able to tell the difference if someone has access to these facilities and original run plates or something similar.

[oldposterho]

Of course, there is a fourth paper type. This is the paper used to print the minty white inserts and lobby cards, and some other fakes. This paper is glossy on front AND back in a way unlike any real movie paper ever used.

I may have missed it in all the fuss, but have those minty whites ever had their paper tested by the lads at MPGrading?

I must say I'm shocked, shocked to find out the "Woodstocks" are later printings.

--Peter

[Bruce]

Peter,

"Your winnings, Monsieur"! And yes, Todd did release a report that the minty whites were printed much later.

Bruce

Dale. You are correct that you can't tell paper apart outside of those eras I described. That IS very troubling. But fortunately, for now the fakes are not so wonderful that you can't tell they are fake through other means. But eventually it will be like coins, where you need a microscope to see the differences, and that too is VERY troubling.

Bruce

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

I know that those who bought the suspect Woodstocks will desperately try to keep saying they are real, but selling them now (after Todd's verification) will "taint" anyone offering them.

Given that the fake sellers now have endless copies of it, I suspect they set up a new account so that they could first sell a LOT of these fakes with the good phony "back story" and now they are just offering them directly, trying to catch the unaware eBay buyers who don't read these forums.

Well, I don't think anybody is "desperately" claiming it's authentic.  I only paid $60 for mine.  I'd just like to get the bottom of this "mystery." Here are the known facts:

(1) The paper is from different eras. (MPA)

(2) The coloring scheme is slightly different. (MPA)

(3) Most of the copies of the suspect posters are moderately to heavily damaged. Most have significant "flecking" of the ink and soft folds (supposedly because the source roll was bent):





Why print and sell damaged repros?

(4) It's not clear if there is an "endless" supply of them.  1-2-3-liquidation sold mine to me for $60 and ran out of stock a year ago.  He is definitely not a "minty white" dealer.  He claimed that he picked out the most undamaged copies. True enough,  the copy he sold me was in excellent condition (with just a couple of flecks here and there).  However, tloceposters has a lot of them, which does not bode well for its authenticity.  It appears that he's folding them to make them more legit.



(5) The microscopic union logo is perfect.  It's very rare to see a perfect union logo on a repro.  How could the union logo be reproduced?  Did the printer have the original printing plate?

(6) Certainly stocks of old posters do show up on occasion.  Right now somebody is selling 57 copies of a 1970 poster "When Women Had Tails":

[Bruce]

Mel, it sounds like you are very dubious of Todd's testers. Which of course is your right. If so, though, does that mean you doubt ALL they say about all fakes?

Maybe the minty white boys are the source who sold the posters to the eBay guy. I see no reason to think otherwise. They may have "distressed" them to make the back story better.

Bruce

[Charlie]

Well in that case, my fuzzy lined Saving Private Ryan is real too (just cause I have one)...    

Should I be the one to point out - RE-RELEASE possibilities and maybe not even in the US...

What about it perhaps being a video poster?

[Charlie]

VHS out in 1992....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Woodstock-VHS-1992-2-Tape-Set-/260845009606?pt=VHS&hash=item3cbb92fac6

This one claims 1987:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Woodstock-VHS-1987-2-Tape-Set-Jimi-Hendrix-Santana-/300557702094?pt=VHS&hash=item45faa293ce

They have the same logo on the box...

[Charlie]

OK one set of VHS cam out in 1987 same era the paper tested to.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/woodstock/oclc/025881704

[Charlie]

Video and album Poster

http://cgi.ebay.com/WOODSTOCK-Sndtrk-Video-20th-Anniv-promo-poster-1989-/7610360406

[Dread_Pirate_Mel]

I doubt these are official video or re-release posters, since they have a logo from a union that ceased existence in 1972, long before the 1980s. Most likely bootlegs, although probably not recent bootlegs, since most are substantially damaged and have "flecking" that probably would occur over time.

[Cj]

It really is too bad the outcome was not different.

Cj