Mid-auction analysis - OMGs!, LOLs!, WTFs!, whatev....

[crowzilla]

So does customer service. No issues with EMP... couple with HA...
When I had one of my card sets listed with HA, they were supposed to be sent and graded by PSA (to match the others that were graded). I agreed to the wait and pay the extra charges in grading... later that time, they said they will list the cards as is instead of grading them with Psa..

I've never dealt with sportscards, and don't really know anything about that division of Heritage or PSA (assuming you meant PSA and not CGC), but sorry to hear you had a problem.
Not sure if that would convince me to resell my items with a company that just got 1/3 of what I paid when they sold a comparable item, but I understand your reasons for doing so. If you still have any items that are coming for sale I wish you the best of luck.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

comparing the 2 venues is a fool's game.

first of all, you can't compare the grading, because one company uses a proprietary system that NO OTHER DEALER USES
EMP uses a book-grading scale, that tops out at Fine, while everyone else uses a system that goes to NM

you can see the variance by looking at this listing, where they grade these cards as VG to Fine, when they are graded NM by the third party grader
so to make comparisons, you need to create an 'interpretive scale' for comparisons. For instance, VG to F on my scale is C-5/6, but clearly, these cards are C-9/10

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/14897134.html

as to price variances, outside grading differentials:
the EMP to HA comparison is the same as Wal-Mart to Nordstroms

one prides itself on falling prices, the other prides itself on quality & results

here is a big difference

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/search/indiana%2520jones/archive.html

https://movieposters.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=790+231+54&Ntk=SI_Titles&Nty=1&Ntt=indiana+jones&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-071316

what HA is getting for Indy posters is phenomenal. Nobody has any chance of matching these results, including myself
HA is regularly getting 5-10 times the prices achieved elsewhere for these US posters.

this isn't comparing apples to oranges, this is comparing apples to apple cores

[okiehawker]

Hi Big Mike,  I'm always torn on entering discussions publicly about various dealers and auctions because if they have something I would like, I would still buy from them as long as any of my previous concerns with them were resolved in a way I thought fair. I know we all have our opinions on EMP and Heritage. From my personal experience and I've mentioned this previously, I really like EMP's condition descriptions and grading. I feel very confident as a buyer that when I receive posters from EMP,  those posters will match the described condition.  Detailed condition descriptions are my personal favorite buying information. I personally would like to see even more detail in poster descriptions at Heritage, though I feel Heritage has treated me very fair when I've had any concerns over the years and they have offered to answer any of my questions on a poster prior to auction. I sure really enjoy the posters I've bought from both EMP and Heritage (and, other dealers as well!).  A pie-in-the-sky wish of mine for auction houses would be to see light box images of linen backed posters so repairs/restoration might be more easily seen prior to purchase, though I know that would raise the cost some for each poster (also, the labor to do that may not be practical).  In just my opinion, I think EMP and Heritage have some significant crossover in the more educated poster collectors who are looking to buy posters they like for what those collectors think is a fair price.  Also, in my opinion, the "money is no object" buyers who battle together do not seem to cross over quite as much, though a few certainly do.  I'm surprised often at what seem like high prices to me on posters that show up fairly regularly in the market: must be some very healthy demand out there.  Like Crowzilla, I wish you good fortune in your future sales!   Okie

[Crazy Vick]

That copy of The Saint in New York actually sold on emovie back in 2006 for $89

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/134190.html

Here's the description at the time from EMP:

Condition: good. Note that the poster had a triangular area of paper loss in the bottom right corner, which included approximately 3/4 of the image of the man in the hat at bottom right. Someone took a page from a "Scott" stamp album, and taped it to the back of this area (so that the blank side of the album page was facing forward, of course) and then they re-drew in the missing portion (they must have had an original poster to use as a guide). It is very crude, but it does serve its purpose in filling out the image, although it is obvious that it is a replaced area. The rest of the poster is rippled and lightly water stained throughout, and there is paper loss in three corners from rough removal of pins.

 

[Simes]

HA managed $270.

Hope the buyer is not disappointed.

[erik1925]

Regardless of who sells that SAINT poster, the lower right corner (repair) is plain and obvious to see, in all its "glory" and looks like it was colored in by an 8 yr old. It is very evident and is easily seen in both the regular and supersize images that both emp and HA provided.

So it's not like that corner "Cloutier-like repair" would be any surprise to a buyer, once received and looked at in person.

[crowzilla]

HA managed $270.

Hope the buyer is not disappointed.

I hope the seller is not disappointed - "only" doubling his money.
As our buddy Mel would say - Heritage is like EMP on steroids.

[erik1925]

I hope the seller is not disappointed - "only" doubling his money.
As our buddy Mel would say - Heritage is like EMP on steroids.

HA and emp are very different.... steroids notwithstanding. 

[Simes]

I hope the seller is not disappointed - "only" doubling his money.
As our buddy Mel would say - Heritage is like EMP on steroids.

Well, the seller would only get $180.  And factoring in postage and the rest leaves him not a lot...

[crowzilla]

Well, the seller would only get $180.  And factoring in postage and the rest leaves him not a lot...

Is $180 not double $89 anymore?

At any rate that certainly sounds a lot better than buying a poster for $7xx and selling it for $2xx as discussed on a prior page..

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Is $180 not double $89 anymore?

At any rate that certainly sounds a lot better than buying a poster for $7xx and selling it for $2xx as discussed on a prior page..

.....and I'd like to know how the owner was supposed to get more money

[Simes]

Is $180 not double $89 anymore?

At any rate that certainly sounds a lot better than buying a poster for $7xx and selling it for $2xx as discussed on a prior page..

Indeed, but with $30+ postage to get the poster to him from EMP, and $30 postage to send it to HA, that would roughly make it to be $30 profit.

Which in my books is, 'not a lot.'

[crowzilla]

Indeed, but with $30+ postage to get the poster to him from EMP, and $30 postage to send it to HA, that would roughly make it to be $30 profit.
Which in my books is, 'not a lot.'

We have a poor guy losing over $500 a sale going from HA to EMP and you want to tell people that doubling their money isn't a lot. 
Of course, you don't know that it cost the consignor $30 to get the poster or to reship, and it is highly unlikely that HA would accept a single $100-ish piece as a consignment (like 99.9% unlikely), so any postage would be spread between multiple submissions and hey, on a good day HA might even spring for postage.
Profit is profit, and no one ever went broke from making a profit on every sale. Sorry if it's not enough to satisfy a rich dude like you. 

but I still offer you a happy new year toast 

[Crazy Vick]

out of curiosity would HA even normally take/sell posters for Sunday Night auctions that have approx 8% of the poster actually missing...  I mean their posters are generally in nice condition for those auctions. Still think they dropped the ball on this one.  By auctioning it as is, its like they "validated" the "restoration".  Not only that, they called it "Fine" to boot. 

If anything they should have recommended to the seller to have it restored/backed in house, and then auctioned in a major auction for example.  Pretty sure the return would've been much better even with the additional costs for HA and the consigner.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

out of curiosity would HA even normally take/sell posters for Sunday Night auctions that have approx 8% of the poster actually missing...  I mean their posters are generally in nice condition for those auctions. Still think they dropped the ball on this one.  By auctioning it as is, its like they "validated" the "restoration".  Not only that, they called it "Fine" to boot. 

If anything they should have recommended to the seller to have it restored/backed in house, and then auctioned in a major auction for example.  Pretty sure the return would've been much better even with the additional costs for HA and the consigner.

Vick, seriously, if we as dealers aren't going to sell the item, it's worse than useless. Should emp stop selling lobby cards that have been trimmed down to the image & the borders & titles replaced with color xeroxes or digital print out? What about incomplete 3 sheet pieces?

I can tell you what the first criteria is for HA to take a poster - any item has to have a minimum value. I send HA a lot of stuff and my target is to send them a consignment (for Sundays) that will average a $100 minimum. That's my target, not theirs. I fail to see a good reason to send them material that doesn't reach a price point, especially as a dealer myself & knowing the expense of preparing this material.

In the case of this poster under discussion, it would be a fail to tell the consignor that they should linenback & restore the poster prior to sale, as the consignor would take a loss for a poster that would not achieve a high enough price to make that a good investment for a seller.
However, a collector who buys the poster and gets it restored doesn't have a profit motive and therefore, it would correctly be their choice after purchase (which almost certainly is the buyer's plan).

Simes.... how do you get to $30 for shipping?

[Crazy Vick]

I agree generally with Rich but in this case the Saint in NY sold in October for $825 in Good to VG condition, and in April for $1250 in just Good condition in a regular auction..  And that's at EMP.  Its not a run of the mill poster its somewhat uncommon.  Imagine what it could have sold for at HA, for a simple $140 backing/resto  done in house, rather than honoring the existing resto.  Debasing themselves somewhat no? 

[MoviePosterBid.com]

for a simple $140 backing/resto 

that poster would cost 300+ to restore, that would require the poster to sell for at least 1000 for the consignor to double his money

there is no simple resto for that item

if it was mine, I would have done it the same way. Just move it. Let me put the money into a better situation. The buyer can restore it to their liking

[jayn_j]

Agree with Rich.  In my 30+ years, I have never run across a situation where backin or restoring a poster is a win financially.  You do it because you can't find a displayable copy at any price.

Mostly, I live with the fact that most defects disappear at 5 ft.

[erik1925]

Vick, seriously, if we as dealers aren't going to sell the item, it's worse than useless. Should emp stop selling lobby cards that have been trimmed down to the image & the borders & titles replaced with color xeroxes or digital print out? What about incomplete 3 sheet pieces?

I can tell you what the first criteria is for HA to take a poster - any item has to have a minimum value. I send HA a lot of stuff and my target is to send them a consignment (for Sundays) that will average a $100 minimum. That's my target, not theirs. I fail to see a good reason to send them material that doesn't reach a price point, especially as a dealer myself & knowing the expense of preparing this material.

In the case of this poster under discussion, it would be a fail to tell the consignor that they should linenback & restore the poster prior to sale, as the consignor would take a loss for a poster that would not achieve a high enough price to make that a good investment for a seller.
However, a collector who buys the poster and gets it restored doesn't have a profit motive and therefore, it would correctly be their choice after purchase (which almost certainly is the buyer's plan).

Simes.... how do you get to $30 for shipping?

Awesome explanation and analysis there, Rich. 

[Crazy Vick]

I had a 30X40 backed and restored by Mario and he charged me 150...both the bottom left AND right corners were completely gone and needed to be re-created. 
There is no way that poster would cost 300.  Also HA could have got "their guy" to do it so it would be closer to 150 than 300.

Let's say for argument's sake the resto cost 225, the poster was originally bought for $89 = total investment $314 for an (actual) very fine poster on linen.  As mediocre paper copies have sold at EMP this year for $825 and $1250...I don't think it a stretch to say that a nice linen placed in a HA major auction would have gone beyond that mark.  Everyone would've cashed in and avoided the embarrassment.  But i guess we'll never know. 

[okiehawker]

Agree with Rich.  In my 30+ years, I have never run across a situation where backin or restoring a poster is a win financially.  You do it because you can't find a displayable copy at any price.

Mostly, I live with the fact that most defects disappear at 5 ft.

Hi Jayn_j and fellow collectors,  In my experience with linen backing/restoration, it depends on how much I spend on the poster initially and what I think its estimated market and/or aesthetic value is after backing/restoration.  Definitely, viewing pleasure comes into play as well as rarity/desirability (some things we desire in common and some things we don't, eh?). In my experience, some posters need cleaning, restoration and linenbacking, and it enhances their value visually and monetarily.  Of course not all posters need this work, though to me, some certainly do so. 
On The Saint in NY poster, 12 years passed since it sold previously, right? Hopefully, in that amount of time a higher price would be achieved and it looks like just as an investment, it did make money. Is a $300 or so investment today in backing/restoration worth it to me to try and make an additional $300 or so, if the sale is good on such a low grade example (auction or outright sale is debatable for sure)?  For selling, I think I'd rather invest the same $300 or so on a poster I bought for $3k and might sell for $6k. If it's a very rare poster I want for my own collection, sometimes common sense doesn't work and I fail to use that same "investment" thought process.  Okie

[eatbrie]

You do it because you can't find a displayable copy at any price.

 

So true.  The sole reason to linenback a poster, any poster, imo.  And the only reason to buy a linenbacked copy.  Because you can't find it folded.

T

[wonka]

I get both sides (and all sides in between the polar opposite ones) on the linenbacking issue...the discussion is ongoing yet a good one.

However, I would encourage all to consider the demographic of buyers who aren't collectors (or are lite collectors at best), and who don't frequent poster forums, don't think about rolled vs. folded, don't think about this auction house vs. that auction house, etc aka 'normal people'.

Some folks just want a cool movie poster on a given wall, either as a interior decorator or a home owner with a fav film from the 60s, and want something to really shine on display. If they see a clean example of Cool Hand Luke restored on linen up at HA sig auction, and have the money, they will buy it (perhaps for much more than the going price or what one of us would pay), end of story...it really is that simple. Linen attracts a different buyer, a whole different world, then the one we share as collectors. It only helps our chit go up or retain in value (at times).

[marklawd]

....Some folks just want a cool movie poster on a given wall, either as a interior decorator or a home owner with a fav film from the 60s, and want something to really shine on display. If they see a clean example of Cool Hand Luke restored on linen up at HA sig auction, and have the money, they will buy it (perhaps for much more than the going price or what one of us would pay), end of story...it really is that simple. Linen attracts a different buyer.......

So true - think patrons of Christies and Sothebys.

Mark

[redman]

up for grabs @emp is my most despised poster, the Oz daybill for The Apartment
imagine having that on your wall and having to look at that typography every day
i couldn't even own this and keep it in a draw
oh, and i am unsure who the folk are as well