Mid-auction analysis - OMGs!, LOLs!, WTFs!, whatev....

[marklawd]

One other mention about this museum part - most everything that is backed by a museum is paperbacked.
And in paperbacking it usually involves lightweight rice paper, not much else restoration-wise, which makes it much easier to remove from the backing if necessary.

It was dealers that started the drive for linenbacking most items as it makes for inventory that is easier to for them to take to shows, display, and ship. So when dealers talk about museums backing their posters also, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

Exactly. No reputable museum would linenback as that process is not archival.

Mark

[erik1925]

One other mention about this museum part - most everything that is backed by a museum is paperbacked.
And in paperbacking it usually involves lightweight rice paper, not much else restoration-wise, which makes it much easier to remove from the backing if necessary.

It was dealers that started the drive for linenbacking most items as it makes for inventory that is easier to for them to take to shows, display, and ship. So when dealers talk about museums backing their posters also, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

In addition, border tears, cross fold tears, skinned areas etc are often mended from the back with a long fibered, Japanese tissue and wheat starch paste. This is a great clip from the Smithsonian that shows the repair process. This seems the way to go to me. Doing less = more.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O0cokmKzwtk" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O0cokmKzwtk</a>

[Filmlobbycards]

Exactly. No reputable museum would linenback as that process is not archival.

Mark

At no point did my friend say that museums linenbacked posters...I'm not sure why that narrative took over....Many Museums, galleries, exhibitions all display large format linenbacked posters....that was the comment and point...it was all aimed at display and presentation....I've personally seen a majority of pieces linenbacked on display in galleries and exhibits...and my friend was talking about primo European posters in European exhibits...not Movie posters....

[Filmlobbycards]

In addition, border tears, cross fold tears, skinned areas etc are often mended from the back with a long fibered, Japanese tissue and wheat starch paste. This is a great clip from the Smithsonian that shows the repair process. This seems the way to go to me. Doing less = more.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/O0cokmKzwtk" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/O0cokmKzwtk</a>

All broadsides and window card sized posters are paperbacked...I've had plenty of them restored ...and other than a few random auctions...I've never seen them linenbacked

[erik1925]

Correct. Many broadsides, and typically, most LC, WC and even many inserts are paper backed, rather than mounting to linen (unless one sends something to Posterfix, that is  ).

The point of this clip was not paper backing but to show that institutions like the Smithsonian repair small tears, rips or skinning of a paper's surface with Japanese mending tissue rather than just slapping it to a piece of linen (or paper backing), if it's not needed or warranted.

[Filmlobbycards]

One other mention about this museum part - most everything that is backed by a museum is paperbacked.
And in paperbacking it usually involves lightweight rice paper, not much else restoration-wise, which makes it much easier to remove from the backing if necessary.

It was dealers that started the drive for linenbacking most items as it makes for inventory that is easier to for them to take to shows, display, and ship. So when dealers talk about museums backing their posters also, it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

While I mostly agree with this...I will add that actually linenbacking started in the 1600's on large format antique maps and by the late 1700's many print sellers would use linen on large format copper plate engravings...copper was extremely expensive and large wall charts would use separate plates for each section...they would then be joined on linen with maybe a quarter inch between segments and then folded so the fold lines were just creased linen between segments of the engravings....the official terminology being   DISSECTED AND LAID ONTO LINEN
in some cases....Parisian print makers have been linen backing paper for a very long time..we have merely been copying them....hell Jean Fabien Gautier d'Agoty even printed in color in 1756...to put into perspective how ahead of the curve they have been...so if anything dealers linenbacking movie posters stems from their observation of the European print market...Even Toulouse lautrec posters were linenbacked very early on

I have personally handled a bunch of copperplate engraved maps from the mid to late 1700's including an entire set of 1797 Vancouver Charts that I just had removed from the old linen and joined together using Green Dragon Bindery as my restorer and put on paper joined together....they said they do this all the time...these maps would be expertly sliced along the fold lines and then placed on the linen

Here is a map that I discovered in the archive I work in and arranged the sale of.....it is a little later...from 1843

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/54123/nouvelle-carte-de-lamerique-meridionale-et-des-iles-qui-en-brue-picquet

While I personally collect only unrestored unbacked small format posters...I can understand why there is a long history of linenbacking large format prints

[Starling]

I always enjoy your posts, Tait. Very informative!

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Exactly. No reputable museum would linenback as that process is not archival.

Mark

exactly Mark.
Linen backing degrades and the glues degrade

In addition, border tears, cross fold tears, skinned areas etc are often mended from the back with a long fibered, Japanese tissue and wheat starch paste.

MENDED being the operative word. In museumworld, there is no 'restoration'. they don't 'replace' anything and the last thing they would do to any item is add paint or anything else to a surface. This is why the Declaration of Independence on display at the National Archives looks the way that it does.

[Filmlobbycards]

exactly Mark.
Linen backing degrades and the glues degrade

MENDED being the operative word. In museumworld, there is no 'restoration'. they don't 'replace' anything and the last thing they would do to any item is add paint or anything else to a surface. This is why the Declaration of Independence on display at the National Archives looks the way that it does.

Actually many museums restore painted works that were donated or purchased...The Louvre is well known for restoration...some good ....some botched...and the de Young museum keeps a restorer on hand to correct paintings...in fact paintings are cleaned and restored for public exhibition and have been since before WWII...you can find heeps of videos online about "conserving" paintings which sometimes includes light over-paint in small areas...many many unique works have been refreshed with paint...but don't take my word for it...see for yourself...it wouldnt surpise me if a decent amount of renaissance era paintings have had some kind of work on them at some point

I don't know if this is true for paper restoration in the united states...but it seems to me that if they are willing to accept restoration for multi-million dollar paintings then at the very least they must consider restoring fine art posters at some point...

[okiehawker]

you are taking my statement out of context.
I didn't say anything about you shouldn't buy or own backed posters, just that we should have an even greater appreciation for those precious few gems that still exist unbacked (like say a 1932 Mummy 3-sheet).

Just joking around with you guys, Crowzilla!  For older, rare posters, I've never minded highly skilled linen backing and restoration, and I do often hope other collectors don't bid on them because they don't like linen backing. I have both linen backed, and posters in their original state.  Either way doesn't really make a difference to me on the older posters. 

Okie

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Actually many museums restore painted works that were donated or purchased...The Louvre is well known for restoration...some good ....some botched...and the de Young museum keeps a restorer on hand to correct paintings...in fact paintings are cleaned and restored for public exhibition and have been since before WWII...you can find heeps of videos online about "conserving" paintings which sometimes includes light over-paint in small areas...many many unique works have been refreshed with paint...but don't take my word for it...see for yourself...it wouldnt surpise me if a decent amount of renaissance era paintings have had some kind of work on them at some point

I don't know if this is true for paper restoration in the united states...but it seems to me that if they are willing to accept restoration for multi-million dollar paintings then at the very least they must consider restoring fine art posters at some point...

restoring paintings has absolutely nothing to do with posters

[okiehawker]

So what did you buy that was so amazingly great in its linenbacked version.  I'd love to hear some titles.  What did you buy from Bruce's last auction?  It sounded like you were going to buy a lot.

T

Hi T,  I actually have a mixture of original state and linen backed posters.  Here are a couple of examples: The Bride of Frankenstein poster from Argentina from 1935 I have is linen backed while the 1929 Mysterious Dr. Fu Manchu one sheet I have is in its original state.  Both posters are framed and up on display.  Either raw or linen backed on older posters really doesn't matter to me much.  It's all about loving the image to me (also helps if my wife enjoys the poster as well).  I collected a lot of pen and ink, black and white original comic art and vintage illustrations previously (still have a few).  However, the beautiful color poster art and paintings are more exciting to my family and helps them to enjoy my hobby more as well.  I like it when other collectors avoid beautiful, stone litho linen backed posters!   You know, in Bruce's auction some of the pretty Western posters on linen I thought about, and I thought about bidding on the Invisible Man 3 sheet on linen that was in the best condition I can remember.  However there are some gems on the last two sessions that I'm holding out for right now.   Anyway, all the thumbs-down discussion on linen backing made me want to joke around a bit.  Okie

[okiehawker]

restoring paintings has absolutely nothing to do with posters

Hi Richie,  I think it is the comfort level of collectors with restoration in a particular collecting field as well. I think about comic collectors having an aversion to restoration often times.  I like that poster collecting is more accepting of restoration in many cases where it makes sense.  I understand personal taste plays into all this as well. Cleaning and sealing paintings is well accepted as normal maintenance for preservation etc.  It's interesting in other collecting fields that even cleaning can be looked down upon let alone restoration and stabilizing with backing. 

Okie

[Filmlobbycards]

I just checked a wide variety of websites of paper conservationists/restoration services online
They all say they have done work for galleries, museums, collectors etc.

They offer variations of retouch, reconstruction - filling, mounting, cleaning and treatment of oversized work

Here is an interesting one
http://oliverbrothersonline.com/our-work/recent-clients/

They work for a lot of institutions according to their list...with a focus on paper
And that typed letter on the page is telling...

My gut feeling is Museums do a lot more restoration outsourced than we think...and who knows what that restoration is

since museums are operated and run with varying degrees of professional oversight...depending on the restorationists they use ...i would stay away from absolutes when it comes to their restoration practices...restoration is constantly evolving after all

Can we safely say we don't really know for sure how much paper is restored by museums in their collections and what the extent of restoration really is??

[Filmlobbycards]

I also want to relate an experience that highlights the murky levels of
self-governance and lack of oversight that frame our topic of discussion

A few years ago i had some very expensive window cards restored, backed and filled in along the bottom and right borders/image area....they did an amzing job...expensive but really high end...two of these were very expensive pieces...The Duck Soup card alone sells $4,000+...

When i inspected them closely i found the dates in the printer info were 1 year off...also the red line was not added on the Tarzan and his mate WC...which is how the full bleed version is...when i contacted them it was a self protective issue they rectified by PURPOSEFULLY restoring them with knowingly alfered variations so the pieces could NOT be sold accidentally or purposefully as perfect condition...because of the PIH Dracula debacle, the fallout from that and considering they were so masterfully restored..that being said

In retrospect it was cavalier to restore the window cards without communicating with me this less than trivial detail...its a unilateral decision they made...and as a top restorer who has self proclaimed  worked for museums , with a fleet of young art students working with them...that is another reason to be skeptical of the quality/amount/extent/exactness of restoration done for other institutions...maybe institutions get more careful work done...maybe not...considering collectors are discerning to say the least...perhaps there is far less close inspection of restored pieces that Museums outsource than we think..

[eatbrie]

Hi T,  I actually have a mixture of original state and linen backed posters.  Here are a couple of examples: The Bride of Frankenstein poster from Argentina from 1935 I have is linen backed while the 1929 Mysterious Dr. Fu Manchu one sheet I have is in its original state.  Both posters are framed and up on display.  Either raw or linen backed on older posters really doesn't matter to me much.  It's all about loving the image to me (also helps if my wife enjoys the poster as well).  I collected a lot of pen and ink, black and white original comic art and vintage illustrations previously (still have a few).  However, the beautiful color poster art and paintings are more exciting to my family and helps them to enjoy my hobby more as well.  I like it when other collectors avoid beautiful, stone litho linen backed posters!   You know, in Bruce's auction some of the pretty Western posters on linen I thought about, and I thought about bidding on the Invisible Man 3 sheet on linen that was in the best condition I can remember.  However there are some gems on the last two sessions that I'm holding out for right now.   Anyway, all the thumbs-down discussion on linen backing made me want to joke around a bit.  Okie

I don't know anything about the two posters you mentioned, but based on title and age, I'm assuming they are extremely rare and worth many multiple thousands of dollars, right?  In this case, I would accept linenbacking.  I was mostly referring to what Bruce was selling, where I didn't see anything that couldn't be obtained folded, and saw a lot that didn't deserve to be linenbacked.  This is what I meant by my original comment of why are these posters linenbacked in the first place.

T

[erik1925]

I also want to relate an experience that highlights the murky levels of
self-governance and lack of oversight that frame our topic of discussion

A few years ago i had some very expensive window cards restored, backed and filled in along the bottom and right borders/image area....they did an amzing job...expensive but really high end...two of these were very expensive pieces...The Duck Soup card alone sells $4,000+...

When i inspected them closely i found the dates in the printer info were 1 year off...also the red line was not added on the Tarzan and his mate WC...which is how the full bleed version is...when i contacted them it was a self protective issue they rectified by PURPOSEFULLY restoring them with knowingly alfered variations so the pieces could NOT be sold accidentally or purposefully as perfect condition...because of the PIH Dracula debacle, the fallout from that and considering they were so masterfully restored..that being said

In retrospect it was cavalier to restore the window cards without communicating with me this less than trivial detail...its a unilateral decision they made...and as a top restorer who has self proclaimed  worked for museums , with a fleet of young art students working with them...that is another reason to be skeptical of the quality/amount/extent/exactness of restoration done for other institutions...maybe institutions get more careful work done...maybe not...considering collectors are discerning to say the least...perhaps there is far less close inspection of restored pieces that Museums outsource than we think..

Any restorer taking it upon themselves to perform this kind of "vandalism" on a piece brought to them to work on and restore, is someone I would never use again. As well, I would demand that the work be rectified and/or ask for a refund.

More importantly, who is this restorer? Someone like this should be identified, so that other's can avoid this person and their self appointed, "loftt" position they have with themselves and this kind of work that they perform.

At the end of the day, you paid for services that this restorer did NOT provide you.

Not to mention the fact that with both these cards, each having been restored with wrong and missing info/detailing, that said restorer has also devalued them both, as well.

[Filmlobbycards]

Any restorer taking it upon themselves to perform this kind of "vandalism" on a piece brought to them to work on and restore, is someone I would never use again. As well, I would demand that the work be rectified and/or ask for a refund.

More importantly, who is this restorer? Someone like this should be identified, so that other's can avoid this person and their self appointed, "loftt" position they have with themselves and this kind of work that they perform.

At the end of the day, you paid for services that this restorer did NOT provide you.

Not to mention the fact that with both these cards, each having been restored with wrong and missing info/detailing, that said restorer has also devalued them both, as well.

I'm not going to out the restorer on the forum...you have to remember they did an AMAZING job on the pieces...those actions were taken from self preservation mode during a turbulent time..they were clearly changing their practices..you also have to remember that the PIH Dracula one sheet scare and the lawsuit after affected multiple restoration services...not long after the Haggard fraud...the pieces were auctioned off years ago and were correctly described btw....I kept the Duck Soup...

I was using this as an example of why its not outlandish to think that outsourced restoration work from institutions and museums could take many shapes with significantly more work being done than just light conservation...I'm not even sure if your average smaller museum would have any paper expert available to consult them on the process and extent...especially since restorers adapt new practices and have deft artistic skill...

I'm skeptical of a single standard practice being implemented when it comes to paper restoration with so many institutions, museums and restorers operating so cavalierly.....just think....Posterfix claims to have worked with museums on their patron page... including The Smithsonian!!!!!

[erik1925]

I'm not going to out the restorer on the forum...you have to remember they did an AMAZING job on the pieces...those actions were taken from self preservation mode during a turbulent time..they were clearly changing their practices..you also have to remember that the PIH Dracula one sheet scare and the lawsuit after affected multiple restoration services...not long after the Haggard fraud...the pieces were auctioned off years ago and were correctly described btw....I kept the Duck Soup...

I was using this as an example of why its not outlandish to think that outsourced restoration work from institutions and museums could take many shapes with significantly more work being done than just light conservation...I'm not even sure if your average smaller museum would have any paper expert available to consult them on the process and extent...especially since restorers adapt new practices and have deft artistic skill...

I'm skeptical of a single standard practice being implemented when it comes to paper restoration with so many institutions, museums and restorers operating so cavalierly.....just think....Posterfix claims to have worked with museums on their patron page... including The Smithsonian!!!!!

As long as you think they did an amazing job, is all that matters (even with the self-decided changes they chose to do to your property without either your permission or alerting you, until you happened to discover them, after the fact).   

[pratschm]

We need another recession. Prices have gone insane. Just my humble opinion.

[eatbrie]

It's just a few people with more money than brains...  Just my opinion.

T

[riley540]

The same seller is offering this, too...

For a cool $16,595.00 (BIN) (frame NOT included).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-A-Space-Odyssey-Style-C-One-Sheet-Movie-Poster-ROLLED-Very-Rare/222762945569?hash=item33ddb4cc21:g:-IQAAOSwzlZaOhwR





And this, for $5295.00 (BIN)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-CLOCKWORK-ORANGE-Original-Vintage-ROLLED-27x41-one-Sheet-Movie-Poster-Kubri/222788275407?hash=item33df374ccf:g:XfQAAOSwogpaU9MQ

I was in between jobs in a financial bind so I threw these up to see what would happen. Thankfully I didn’t sell them and I found good work soon after. I have a huge passion for cinema and love collecting old art work. I love my 2001 poster and my clockwork poster. I got the clockwork poster from Cinemasterpieces a few years back and made a private deal with Catherine Mcall for the 2001 poster. It was an emotional and desperate time when I was trying to sell them.

Same goes for my bulk collection. I am going to go back to individual listings on eBay. I usually start them around $1.00 and have some decent stuff sometimes!

[erik1925]

I was in between jobs in a financial bind so I threw these up to see what would happen. Thankfully I didn’t sell them and I found good work soon after. I have a huge passion for cinema and love collecting old art work. I love my 2001 poster and my clockwork poster. I got the clockwork poster from Cinemasterpieces a few years back and made a private deal with Catherine Mcall for the 2001 poster. It was an emotional and desperate time when I was trying to sell them.

Same goes for my bulk collection. I am going to go back to individual listings on eBay. I usually start them around $1.00 and have some decent stuff sometimes!

Good to read that you were able to hold onto both of your posters, riley540. Sounds like both the movies and the posters mean a lot to you. So even better that they are still in yur hands and on yur wall.

And  to the forum. Have fun and enjoy it.

[Crazy Vick]

So i'm thinking Deep pockets (or no pockets) Noah27 may be from across the pond

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/sort/4/records/80/tag/xtype%253Atravel%2520poster/tag/nation%253AU.K./14.html

[guest4955]

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