Official Thai Movie Poster Authentication Thread

[Charlie]

I am starting this thread to seek additional information regarding the authenticity of Thai Movie Posters.  It seems like a lot of us (myself included) have been purchasing multiple Thai movie posters as of late.  I have yet to be convinced that everything I've bought is 1st release original material and not restrikes from either the original posters or the original artwork.

Here are a few reasons:

I've only noticed premium titles up for sale.  You don't see a lot of off titles - maybe because they never showed in Thailand.

The artists in Thailand seem to still own the original artwork.  Can these be scanned in and reproduced?

There are issues with the artwork in various titles. 

Apocalypse Now:

One Sheet.  Notice separation between "Bottoms" and no defects in artwork.



Two Sheet.  Notice the defects in the artwork the fold running in the middle of the left sheet and how "Bottoms" lines up.  This copy in is pretty much pristine condition.  These are not from the paper, but from the original scanned image.  However the colors in this version are outstanding compared to the one sheet - much deeper.



I have three theories. 

1. The two sheets are legit and were reproduce from the original artwork and the one sheet is a cleaned up version of a scan from the two sheet, where they forgot to push the "Bottoms" back together.  They also digitally corrected the problems from the two sheet original. What I have a hard time believing is that the two sheets would have been produced as first releases with such messiness. 

2. The known two sheets are later rereleases, where scans were used of the original concept artwork that had since deteriorated by TongDee or owners of the originals.

3.  The One sheet was produced first from original artwork and the two sheet was later reproduced due to demand via No. 1 with the problems in the artwork.  The "Bottoms" issue was resolved with the two sheet printing.

~4.  They are all reproductions of the original artworks over time and may have varying artwork issues as printed on demand by the artist TongDee or owner of the art.

Another example of folds in artwork.  Notice the fold line through the heads of the Indians in this Dances With Wolves - also in near mint condition.


However to combat these theories here is a photo of the original Terminator Artwork and you can see the fold line. 



Here is the poster which looks digitally enhance:

[supraman079]

I'll have to check my Dances With Wolves to see what it looks like compared to yours. One thing that has always bothered me about it is there is a painted line in the artwork across the middle of the sheet which is apparent on my copy as well as yours. Like the artist did half the artwork on a different panel or something and brought them together for the full print. Regardless this is the best artwork done on the film in my opinion. I can also say mine isn't as pristine as your copy.

I know a few people who have the Apocalypse Now One Sheet but how many people have the 2 sheet besides you? I have the terminator as well but it's buried some place that God only knows.

I wonder how common are the 2 sheets?
And what are all the sizes that Thailand officially uses for theater releases?

[Bruce]

Here is what somewhat makes me wonder:

1) Mostly all good titles
2) Mostly all good condition
3) Low prices on some
4) Prices so low on some that it seems like the sellers have next-to-no cost in them
5) Multiples for sale

All of the above describes the stuff the minty white sellers sell.

But everything may be fine. Does anyone have any that appear more "theater-used" than the ones seen thus far?

[Harry Caul]

You've only sold 113 Thai posters though Bruce.  If there were lots of fakes floating around, don't you think you would have been consigned considerably more by now? 

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/search/thai/country/Thai/archive.html

I can't speak to the fold lines appearing printed in the artwork, but here is another theory.  Most of the desirable titles for Thai posters only sell for $100 or much less.  If something like Le Mans only sells for $12 (http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/673427.html), what incentive would there to be to save less desirable titles, let alone consign or auction them?  That could explain why only few higher-end titles seem to surface.  Just an idea...

[Bruce]

I have more to lose than anyone if they prove to be restrikes or rereleases or repros, because I would be offering 113 refunds!

But I still have to wonder. Posters from just about every other country come more from bad than good movies, even though the bad ones sell for little. And they come in terrible condition around as much as they come in great condition.

But apparently Thailand is an exception.

[CSM]

I have more to lose than anyone if they prove to be restrikes or rereleases or repros, because I would be offering 113 refunds!

But I still have to wonder. Posters from just about every other country come more from bad than good movies, even though the bad ones sell for little. And they come in terrible condition around as much as they come in great condition.

But apparently Thailand is an exception.

Maybe Thailand only received "popular" movies at a later date? - I.e. after they were proven to be successful in North America or elsewhere internationally...

[erik1925]

For older films released in Thailand, that may have been released sometime later, are Thai posters printed with any kind of date? One example that I have seen described as being from either the 1960's or 1970's, is for River Of No Return. Several are on ebay right now, from Thai sellers as being from the '60s, and a couple others are stated to be from later. I know Bruce has described these as "Probably from the 1970s."

Is there any way to definitively know? (and not just for this title, but for any Thai poster).

[Charlie]

I am resigned to state that I think two of the three Terminator Thai posters I received from Pea (the person selling on here) are restrikes...  In fact I think the other one is just an earlier restrike.

I've got two different versions.  (Click for supersized)

No paint under Terminator and paint under Terminator. 

No Paint Under Terminator Version:



Paint Under Terminator Version (these are separate copies - notice the same water damage pattern)



It appears both of these came from the same water damaged roll... Now it gets even better!  There are also others on eBay right now that have the same water damage pattern as the ones I received from her. Without the paint!  So how many prints would have to be run and rolled, then ruined by water, to get to that paint spot...




Here is another folded copy without the water damage (Click for supersize):




And then there is this one I found that doesn't have the line (that I can tell)



Here is the original again:



I also found the same artwork on a Pakastani Poster:



I am also now suspicious that all the posters I have purchased from her are restrikes.  I think these Thai posters dealers, especially with the TongDee art, are having runs printed probably 100 at a time on demand from the original artwork. 

If anyone can prove me wrong please do.  Pea if you have information to the contrary, please provide it.

[Charlie]

Two Sheet.  Notice the defects in the artwork the fold running in the middle of the left sheet and how "Bottoms" lines up.  This copy in is pretty much pristine condition.  These are not from the paper, but from the original scanned image.  However the colors in this version are outstanding compared to the one sheet - much deeper.

Ok, I was wrong here.  I just pulled out my copy and the fold is in the paper.  But the other defects in the artwork are true...

Here is a super high res...

Left & Right

[Ari]

Here is what somewhat makes me wonder:

1) Mostly all good titles
2) Mostly all good condition
3) Low prices on some
4) Prices so low on some that it seems like the sellers have next-to-no cost in them
5) Multiples for sale

All of the above describes the stuff the minty white sellers sell.

But everything may be fine. Does anyone have any that appear more "theater-used" than the ones seen thus far?

I don't have any of the posters pictured above.
I met with in person and bought from Pea.
I also met on two occasions and bought from another dealer in Bangkok.

Firstly the titles that are available are not by any stretch mostly all good titles.
I am sure that what has been bought from this forum has been mostly "good" titles. But what is available is a lot (LOT) of titles that I am sure pea won't bother listing here as it's a waste of time, Thai films, Hong Kong films non of us have heard of. Misc UN cool American films etc.

My taste and the taste of my customers is a little different to most collectors, so while I did get some sight after and usual titles,like Dawn of the dead, REANIMATOR etc, I also got titles that I know I can use but most people couldn't give two hoots about , like Bruno Matteis RATS NIGHT OF TERROR, or Sergio Martinos ISLAND OF THE FISHMEN.

Some things to note,
with dawn of the dead, I bought one that was near mint/rolled, and a couple that were used and folded.
They are the same, except for the "damage" to the used ones.

A couple of titles, I wanted more than one copy, but they were not available, or in one case there was three available only, I couldn't "order" more. Once gone he were gone.

I saw posters that Pea showed me, many titles that even though I was there, so no postage costs, and as I was buying a lot, Pea gave me a good price, I could not use or resell, (nothing titles).
So, the theory that only good titles is not true.

Same with the Bangkok store, he had thousands of posters that wouldn't get much action in a 99c no reserve auction.

I can't really comment on the terminator or apoc now 2 sheet, I haven't seen these in person. Except I saw the apoc now one sheet in the Bangkok store. I didn't look too closely as it's not a film or poster that interests me personally.

Anyway I am all for research ,and sharing information.

I hope though that a witch hunt isn't called for prematurely.


 

[crowzilla]

I am inclined to agree with Ari.
In the past few years I have spent several thousand dollars with a few Thai sellers & collectors (including Pea) all in the area of Japanese sci-fi.
It seems that Thailand released more Japanese sci-fi films than any other country I know of and it hasn't been unusual to find a Thai poster for a film that I can't find a record of being released in even a single other country around the world (things like Gamera vs. Zigra and Yokai Monsters), and while posters from the mid-80s onward have been much more plentiful, posters from the mid-60s and prior have been incredibly tough.

Paper quality and poster condition have both trended down as the posters have gotten older, and of the titles in this area that would demand high dollars I have been lucky to find even a single example of many and never multiple copies of any of them.  Even a few years ago Pea was complaining to me about how most titles were worthless, how hard it was to find the really good stuff and that apparently not only were literal tons of older paper destroyed by the harsh conditions in the country (lots of flooding combined with horrible storage conditions in hot humid weather until mass collecting started in the mid-80s) but there are a few "kingpins" who controlled most of the open-air cinemas during the 60s-80s and warehoused most of the earlier paper that is found.

There is still a lot I am looking for (and of course I buy the Thai lobbies and other material also) and while ebay and sellers abound with multiple copies for something like the re-release of Invasion of the Astro Monsters, the original proved quite tough to find. But I am really enjoying the fact that they created unique artwork for a large majority of their titles and finding so many titles that were unreleased in other countries.

Pretty much every title I have at least through the late 70s is dated - almost all are all dated using the Buddhist year -1 (so a poster with the date of 2513 would be 1970), though there are the odd ones using the Western calendar.

[Charlie]

I hope though that a witch hunt isn't called for prematurely.

I apologize if this the message I am sending.  I perhaps am not trying to call out Pea as much attempt to get a resolution to the unsettling feelings I have about the posters.  Maybe someone can address:

Why there are folds in the artwork? Is this how the Thai poster system works?

I've seen fold in other poster art and most have been rereleases.  Most obvious one is the For a Few Dollars More Italian 70s RR:

With the fold in the art:


Without the fold in the art:


Why is the artwork in the Apocalypse Now 2-Sheet so unpolished?  Why would there be an error in the one sheet horizontal?

There just isn't any information out there regarding authentication, production process, etc...   

[Charlie]

Firstly the titles that are available are not by any stretch mostly all good titles.
I am sure that what has been bought from this forum has been mostly "good" titles. But what is available is a lot (LOT) of titles that I am sure pea won't bother listing here as it's a waste of time, Thai films, Hong Kong films non of us have heard of. Misc UN cool American films etc.

I can accept this as true.  First hand experience is very helpful.

[crowzilla]

Many times folds I have seen in foreign paper have been from 2nd/3rd world countries that are reprinting other countries artwork.  Now I know Thailand is considered a 1st world country, and that they are mostly doing their own art so not sure what the explanation would be here.

One thing I don't understand from your accusations is that if Nixdorf owns the original artwork for the Terminator poster, why would he be loaning it back to Thailand so they can run it off 100 copies at a time?
That makes no sense. 

[Charlie]

One thing I don't understand from your accusations is that if Nixdorf owns the original artwork for the Terminator poster, why would he be loaning it back to Thailand so they can run it off 100 copies at a time?
That makes no sense. 

It doesn't... I don't know who owns what?  I just went back and studied the page and see it is owned by this Nixdorf fella...  I just can't fathom why artwork would be folded prior to producing 1st release posters... 

[Charlie]

I would also say that in comparing the original artwork and the posters they are different colors...  The original also doesn't have the mock ups for printing.  I imagine there is a master mock up for production including the titles etc. that could be being used for printing purposes.

[crowzilla]

I would also say that in comparing the original artwork and the posters they are different colors...  The original also doesn't have the mock ups for printing.  I imagine there is a master mock up for production including the titles etc. that could be being used for printing purposes.

Of course. The original is never just laid on a press and they start printing. They always make a copy and then apply stats to it.  The original in this case is quite large (larger than a 1-sheet), and it wouldn't surprise me if it was folded either by the artist to mail back to the office, or by the office themselves so they could transport it easily. 
It was just throw-away art, not meant to be scrutinized after printing to see if there is a light fold line printed on the poster - especially in a country like Thailand.

[Ari]

As another side note. And not to be mean to Aussie posters but there's folds printed in artwork of Aussie first posters also sometimes. Granted though this is when they used foreign art as the key image.

[CSM]

As another side note. And not to be mean to Aussie posters but there's folds printed in artwork of Aussie first posters also sometimes. Granted though this is when they used foreign art as the key image.

Yep - Running Man springs to mind

[Charlie]

Yep - Running Man springs to mind

Yeah, I freaked out about that one too...

http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,3411.msg53865.html#msg53865

[Charlie]

So, I have been doing more study and am now convince that only the artwork was folded for these Terminator posters.  My new theory, building on Sean's post, that the artwork was folded (maybe in half or maybe to fit the scanner) for scanning purposes. The mock up could have also been folded to be digitized further creating the strong line through the middle of the art. However there is no evidence that the fold goes beyond the art...   

If you look at what I have been calling a fold line you will see that the image doesn't even match up and there appears to be a curve in it:



The fold not going beyond the art:



Bruce also was asking about theater used copies and I snapped some pics of the back of the folded copy and it looks pretty theater used and even has the title...





So maybe just a freak out on my part but we need to step it up and learn more about the Thai movie poster production process and how to spot fakes... 

[skyjackers]

Maybe it was painted over to canvass and that is a physical join between the two?

[Charlie]

Just a note:  I messaged Pea about this thread when I started it.  She has yet to respond to me or this thread.

[rdavey26]

I do not think Pea ventures outside of the for sale section that often Charlie. I do not know how well her English is but she might also have a hard time reading what it typed. And she may not want to take the time to Google translate it all. Just to much work. I don't know Charlie maybe over time she will take the time and post in here. Another person you could ask that has a ton of Thai posters is Neil Jarowski I believe is his name. He lives in the UK. I do not think that he is an active member here but he might be able to shed some light on this subject as well.

[thaimovieposter]

I apologize for taking so long to reply to this thread, but after just getting over a recent illness I had to attend a funeral for my best
 friend, and I wanted to verify some information before responding.

First off though, I would like to thank you for opening this thread and giving me a chance to clarify about Thai posters as much as possible.
 I actually had a chance to talk with Tongdee and his assistant to verify some of the information about the posters and whether or not they
 are authentic.

Tongdee would like to confirm that the Apocalypse Now 2-sheets are indeed authentic, but he has never seen the 1-sheets until recently so
he is unsure as to their origin.

Tongdee would also like to set at ease the worries about the posters being purchased from me being restrikes or not originals.
He said no one scanned or reproduced his artwork from the originals, as no Thai artists allow that. As to restrikes, it depends on the orders
 of the rights owners of the films in Thailand. Although they can be reprinted for for use in the rural areas, the colors will mostly be
 different and it will mainly be done for Thai movies, very rarely for foreign movies.
Usually there are two different types of artwork made, one is used for 1-sheets and the other for 2-sheets. The 2-sheets are almost alway
s reserved for big-budget release movies (Apocalypse Now, Terminator, Dances with Wolves, etc.). These can also be shown at the studio
owned or rights owned theaters in Thailand. 2 Sheet artwork is painted on 2 seperate boards.  When boards put together for 1 sheet print,
there is line that can't be removed

Oftentimes when the 2-sheet art is used also for the 1-sheet, you will see a line in the middle of the poster (Dances with Wolves,
Terminator, etc.).
This is because they used a straight offset printing back then, and no Photoshop or digital correction. They are/were never printed by
demand of the artist, only by the request of the Thailand rights holder to be used as promotional material in the theater (both urban
and rural areas).

Condition can vary because the posters can be found from many different place, mostly from what we call liquidation theaters and they
were located both in urban and rural areas. When posters were sent to the rural area theaters they were usually folded (rarely kept rolled).
If the theater is a large one (mainly urban areas) and has spare room to keep the posters then they can be found in excellent condition, but
from smaller theaters and not kept up well then of course they will look old and dirty.

Thai movie posters have many different sizes and they were all dependent upon the demands of the right owners of the movies.
There were many companies importing movies and using different printing sizes and this is why Thai posters will come in different sizes.
 Paper quality and size will usually depend on the following factors:

1. Price of paper in the different time period
2. Budget of the rights owner in marketing the movie
3. Relationship between the rights owner of the movie and printing company
4. Current economy in Thailand.

Hope this addresses some of the issues you had, and if I missed answering any of your questions please let me know and I will do my best
to answer.

Thanks,

Pea