Author Topic: Berwick Discovery: The Biggest find of early movie posters in recent history  (Read 285901 times)

Offline brude

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here is a question that I have.

Unless someone has the finances to actually bid on such posters as a Dracula, Public Enemy or Ten Cents a Dance, why do any of them care what the reserve price is going to be on such posters??

I completely understand the interest in knowing what the reserve is on something you are going to bid on, or what the final price is on something you won't bid on (yes we were keenly interested in what the BOF teaser would sell for - but it didn't of course). The rest is just gossip for gossip's sake IMO

That said, I have no doubt that the Dracula poster & most if not all of the Berwick posters will actually sell next week when they hit the auction block.

I don't think this is about "gossip" at all.
There are many collectors on this board from all walks of life.
This thread just might be the most 'definitive' account of this discovery available anywhere on the internet.
It just stands to reason that we all -- whether we are bidding or not -- are interested in the perceived minimal value HA has placed on these posters.

Offline Zorba

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This might be shocking news to some people but I think that this a forum about movie posters.

 laugh1


Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Ted.. most of  the other subjects about the Berwick discovery have been fairly interesting, but that isn't what I asked.. My question was very specific:
Quote
Unless someone has the finances to actually bid on such posters as a Dracula, Public Enemy or Ten Cents a Dance, why do any of them care what the reserve price is going to be on such posters??

Myself, while I find all the main information about this deal great stuff, this one aspect is of no importance. To me, it is obvious they are all for sale at one time because the consignor wants to make his money now. Grey is one of the smartest poster people in this business (which is why Heritage does $10mil+ in poster sales every year) and I am certain that he would council the consignor on what prices these posters should sell for and any smart seller trying to get his profits out is going to listen.
As I said, I have no doubt that most if not all of these posters will sell and I am certain the Dracula will sell because it is obvious that the reserve is $100k (half the low estimate) or if it is higher.. it isn't much higher. The poster will sell, and the final price is the important figure, not any supposed reserve.

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Juli

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I am certain the Dracula will sell because it is obvious that the reserve is $100k (half the low estimate) or if it is higher.. it isn't much higher.

The Nicolas Cage one sold for around $300,000 so I don't understand why the estimate on this ($100,000 is what I am seeing) is so low compared to that. It's the same exact poster and design...my only thinking is maybe because at the time the other one sold it was the only known copy, but now that this one has shown up there are two known copies and the people bidding on this copy will have in mind that one other exists? Can ONE other known copy make that much impact on value?  jawdrop

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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there are more than 2 copies of this poster Juli

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Juli

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there are more than 2 copies of this poster Juli

Of the exact design? I thought this design there were only 2. Must be mixed up with a different poster.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 06:11:31 PM by Juli »

Offline jayn_j

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In my mind the only valid use of a reserve is to set a maximum price where the seller would rather keep it.  Any other game is like riverboat gambling or soybean futures.

I am much more concerned with the hammer price, because that is going to trickle down and affect prices on posters I can actually afford.
-Jay-

Offline CSM

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Ted.. most of  the other subjects about the Berwick discovery have been fairly interesting, but that isn't what I asked.. My question was very specific:
Myself, while I find all the main information about this deal great stuff, this one aspect is of no importance. To me, it is obvious they are all for sale at one time because the consignor wants to make his money now. Grey is one of the smartest poster people in this business (which is why Heritage does $10mil+ in poster sales every year) and I am certain that he would council the consignor on what prices these posters should sell for and any smart seller trying to get his profits out is going to listen.
As I said, I have no doubt that most if not all of these posters will sell and I am certain the Dracula will sell because it is obvious that the reserve is $100k (half the low estimate) or if it is higher.. it isn't much higher. The poster will sell, and the final price is the important figure, not any supposed reserve.

Rich, we care because it is interesting.  And, personally, I want to understand how Heritage "works" since apparently I am ignorant.  

Did YOU know the reserve was actually 1/2 the low estimate before Grey posted about that?  Does HA disclose this fact blatantly anywhere in their auctions?

Obviously the final price is the important price.  But the discussion was on the Dracula being at $90,000.  If the bidder is ignorant (yes there is an argument that someone REALLY bidding $90,000 should know the ins and outs of HA's policies) they may think they actually have the high bid.  But then the reserve is applied and boom the low bid is now the reserve price (which is actually not a true bid at all!)

Chris

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Did YOU know the reserve was actually 1/2 the low estimate before Grey posted about that?  Does HA disclose this fact blatantly anywhere in their auctions?

I believe they do indeed have such information posted publicly and Grey has also stated so clearly many times on MoPo etc.

the reserves (if any) are usually 1/2 the low estimate although for some items they have been a higher %

admittedly, I actually do business with Heritage and have for almost a decade, so I do indeed know how thier auctions work.

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Offline Harry Caul

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The Nicolas Cage one sold for around $300,000 so I don't understand why the estimate on this ($100,000 is what I am seeing) is so low compared to that. It's the same exact poster and design...my only thinking is maybe because at the time the other one sold it was the only known copy, but now that this one has shown up there are two known copies and the people bidding on this copy will have in mind that one other exists? Can ONE other known copy make that much impact on value?  jawdrop

One of the reasons estimates are lower than past sales is because past sales include the 20% buyers premium. The Nic Cage poster sold for $310k, which actually means the top bid was around $250k -- much closer to the Berwick estimate.

Other reasons why the previous poster may ultimately sell at a higher price could be name recognition of the owner or the fact that the Berwick poster was missing the lower border.

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Other reasons why the previous poster may ultimately sell at a higher price could be .... or the fact that the Berwick poster was missing the lower border.

Harry.. seriously.. anyone interested in this poster, does not care that the blank bottom border was replaced, and it will hardly be an obstacle to any bid from any prospective bidder

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Offline Harry Caul

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Rich... seriously... I realize this poster is uber rare and that condition is less of an issue.  I never said collectors would shun it.  I just stated reasons why the estimate may be lower.  This poster could very well outsell the Nic Cage poster due to rarity alone.  It all depends on who the top two bidders are. 

However, to think that a buyer of a $300,000 poster doesn't care at all about the pre-restoration condition would be foolish.  From what we know so far, the condition is really nice.... minus the bottom border.

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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no player for this poster will be complaining about the bottom border because the image area was virtually complete except for minor digs etc.

the results will have nothing to do with the bottom border at all, whatever the results are.

There are only a few copies. That means only a few people can own one.
Those people who would go after this poster will go after the poster and play seriously

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Offline Harry Caul

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Ok Rich, I give up.  You are right, condition doesn't matter when spending $300,000.   eyeroll

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Ok Rich, I give up.  You are right, condition doesn't matter when spending $300,000.   eyeroll

Harry.. IT'S THE BLANK BOTTOM FERQIN BORDER

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Offline CSM

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Harry.. IT'S THE BLANK BOTTOM FERQIN BORDER

Rich it's still a less than complete poster.  If you have an option between a complete one and one that has had the bottom border recreated for the same
price which would you choose?
Chris

Offline CSM

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I believe they do indeed have such information posted publicly and Grey has also stated so clearly many times on MoPo etc.

the reserves (if any) are usually 1/2 the low estimate although for some items they have been a higher %

admittedly, I actually do business with Heritage and have for almost a decade, so I do indeed know how thier auctions work.

Why state it on MoPo and not in the auction itself?

Your last statement also explains why you are so quick to defend Grey and HA (but you need to realize no one is accusing HA of anything - just discussing the reality of their reserve practices!) ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 12:24:34 AM by CSM »
Chris

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Rich it's still a less than complete poster.  If you have an option between a complete one and one that has had the bottom border recreated for the same
price which would you choose?

Chris
this isn't a Goldfinger one sheet

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Offline CSM

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Chris
this isn't a Goldfinger one sheet

Who wants a Goldfinger one sheet?

I understand what you are saying Rich but still - condition DOES matter regardless of rarity.
Chris

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Your last statement also explains why you are so quick to defend Grey and HA (but you need to realize no one is accusing HA of anything - just discussing the reality of their reserve practices!) ;)

Chris.. I have come to the side of a number of people at various times, generally when I think they are being unfairly criticised or attacked. These people include Bruce, Heritage, Jeannie, Lumi on MoPo and others. It's also because I work in front of a computer most of the day & am frequently looking to take a minute or two off from listing auctions & answering emails. But it's mostly because these are public boards, and sometimes, I have the fastest answers..... and why do you call it "defend"?
If you're discussing something in a studious fashion, there are no attacks and therefore no defenses. Of course, many people do attack, rather than look for the real answers, which are all over the websites from which you question. The research is there if you choose to avail yourself of it.

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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Who wants a Goldfinger one sheet?

I understand what you are saying Rich but still - condition DOES matter regardless of rarity.

you guys are hopeless.
 moron1

when you can find a Dracula poster in every comic book shop for a cheap price, then it will become important. If you're talking about an elite item, the comment just isn't valid.

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Offline CSM

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Chris.. I have come to the side of a number of people at various times, generally when I think they are being unfairly criticised or attacked. These people include Bruce, Heritage, Jeannie, Lumi on MoPo and others. It's also because I work in front of a computer most of the day & am frequently looking to take a minute or two off from listing auctions & answering emails. But it's mostly because these are public boards, and sometimes, I have the fastest answers..... and why do you call it "defend"?
If you're discussing something in a studious fashion, there are no attacks and therefore no defenses. Of course, many people do attack, rather than look for the real answers, which are all over the websites from which you question. The research is there if you choose to avail yourself of it.

I used "defend" as it appears you felt HA was being attacked.

Rich, let the "accused" answer for themselves.

And why not make the information/research far more transparent?
Chris

Offline CSM

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you guys are hopeless.
 moron1

when you can find a Dracula poster in every comic book shop for a cheap price, then it will become important. If you're talking about an elite item, the comment just isn't valid.

Rich, how many of this style Dracula are extant?  5 or something?

Are you asserting that they are ALL worth the exact same regardless of their actual relative conditions just because only 5 exist?
Chris

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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I used "defend" as it appears you felt HA was being attacked.
Rich, let the "accused" answer for themselves.
And why not make the information/research far more transparent?

Chris... it is an open forum for all to answer.. if you want answers from Grey Smith, why don't you email him directly, rather than try to embarrass Heritage in public?? Posts to a public forum get answered by anyone end everyone wishing to comment

 :P

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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Rich, how many of this style Dracula are extant?  5 or something?

Are you asserting that they are ALL worth the exact same regardless of their actual relative conditions just because only 5 exist?

it doesn't matter how many exist even.. How many can you buy if you can pay the ticket?
the answer: just the one Heritage is auctioning

and Chris.. the Heritage information is indeed transparent.. again, you just have to read the information Heritage has on their website & usually all these questions are answered. They are not secrets

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