Author Topic: Casablanca 1947 Belgian  (Read 5618 times)

Offline Undead

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Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« on: August 09, 2018, 10:00:30 AM »
I know the answer after carefully reviewing but wanted to make 100% sure with the aid of some of the various experts around here. I guess, In short I know it is fake but really really wanted it to be real so looking for confirmation.

I recently purchased what was supposed to be an original trimmed 1947 Belgian Casablanca. Pics looked good overall but after receiving it some red flags went up immediately.

The first being that the red had bled so the white edges around the title have a pinkish hew to them, it is mounted and am assuming that is when the bleeding occurred.  The types of inks used on these should not bleed but as I am not an expert on this particular vintage from that area cannot say 100% for sure.


Skipping immediately to a major red flag for me and one of the first things I look at when verifying. The printer info in the bottom border is not crisp and sharp as I would expect and looks very much like inkjet instead with some extra dots of color in the vicinity. As I again am not an expert on this time frame and location wanted to make sue that it should be clear and sharp with none of the blotchy edges like this shows. There are other spots int he image that look like it is inkjet as well as you can see below.


There are other flags as well but I think these are enough to verify that it is indeed a forgery.

Thoughts greatly appreciated.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:03:51 AM by Undead »
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Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:11:29 PM »
Could it just be out of print registration?  Not saying it's not a fake, though.  Okie

Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 10:39:13 PM »
All of those tiny red and blue dots near the printer's info, (almost looking like "over spray" from a sputtering ink jet) as well as the printers info not looking solid & crisp, also almost looking a bit like offset printing, would have me wondering the same things too, Mike.

In looking at the last copy that HA sold (it was also a linen backed copy) and zooming in, the printer's text looks more solid. And then there is whatever is going on with your main title lettering and the bleeding ink.





https://movieposters.ha.com/itm/academy-award-winner/casablanca-warner-brothers-1947-first-post-war-release-belgian-12-x-155-/a/7167-86095.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:29:31 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

Offline Undead

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 10:26:48 AM »
Thanks, the more I look at it the more I feel that I am correct and it is a fake. That and I did a small scratching of the surface toning in the border, as unobtrusively as possible, and it is pure white underneath as well as the edges under a scope, looks like it was airbrushed. If it was real toning it would extend into the paper at that point. It is on its way back to the seller now.

The registration issues are not a worry to me, quite common actually, but thanks for the thinking on it Okie.

For future reference should it come up for sale again. This is a link to where I got it from Flea-Bay.

1947 Casablanca Belgian
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 01:00:23 PM »
The seller's images, with parts of the poster in shadow and the overall weaker lighting would have made me stop and ponder, too.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:03:46 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 03:45:46 PM »
the link to the Casablanca poster doesn't work, but directed me to a listing being sold by Weimer
is that the seller?

if so, Mark is top notch and I would be inclined to believe it's real.

I can't see Mark making such a mistake

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 03:48:25 PM »
the link to the Casablanca poster doesn't work, but directed me to a listing being sold by Weimer
is that the seller?

if so, Mark is top notch and I would be inclined to believe it's real.

I can't see Mark making such a mistake

weimer was not the seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/302824356714?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137


-Jeff

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 04:02:03 PM »
weimer was not the seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/302824356714?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137

I can't really tell for sure, but I wouldn't touch it. My opinion might be different if I could see it in hand.

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Offline Undead

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2018, 10:14:17 PM »
Of about the link.

Seller was nostalgiacollectIbles

They seem nice enough and no hassles taking it back.
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 10:52:45 PM »
And now to watch, to see how long it takes before it's relisted.


-Jeff

Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2018, 10:58:05 PM »
Of about the link.

Seller was nostalgiacollectIbles

They seem nice enough and no hassles taking it back.

Hi Undead, Another thing I do every time I receive a backed poster is shine a brght light through the poster from the backed side.  I like a really bright "shop" light or similar. The bright light going through the backing and poster help to much more easily see restoration, tears, missing missing pieces etc.  I use this as my restored/backed poster x-ray!  Okie

Offline Undead

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2018, 11:03:50 PM »
Thanks, okie, I do something similar. In the case of this one, it is backed to a cardboard kind of material. Not at all something a professional restorer would use.
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Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2018, 11:08:17 PM »
Thanks, okie, I do something similar. In the case of this one, it is backed to a cardboard kind of material. Not at all something a professional restorer would use.

Yeah, that cardboard backing sound very odd, Undead.  I've found a few on masonite over the years.   Okie

Offline Sunday Silence

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 09:20:02 AM »
can you guys elaborate more on what you are looking for when you shine the bright light? Like Okie is talking about looking for missing pieces what does that mean? also you can see a tear under the bright light? but that just means its restored no? so its still authentic yes?

Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2018, 11:48:57 AM »
can you guys elaborate more on what you are looking for when you shine the bright light? Like Okie is talking about looking for missing pieces what does that mean? also you can see a tear under the bright light? but that just means its restored no? so its still authentic yes?

Holding a backed or restored poster up against a bright light will let you see any repaired tears, rips, or paper filled areas where there might have been paper loss.

So yes... the poster is an original, but the light just can give you a better visual of where the former damage was and the fixes done to it.


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Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2018, 12:26:06 PM »
Holding a backed or restored poster up against a bright light will let you see any repaired tears, rips, or paper filled areas where there might have been paper loss.

So yes... the poster is an original, but the light just can give you a better visual of where the former damage was and the fixes done to it.

Hi Sunday and Jeff,  Well, being an original poster can make for an interesting discussion as well.  I've seen cases where the date information on a poster was removed and/or changed.  Backlighting the poster revealed that change. So, backlighting a restored poster can reveal more than just restoration.   Okie

Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2018, 12:30:01 PM »
Hi Sunday and Jeff,  Well, being an original poster can make for an interesting discussion as well.  I've seen cases where the date information on a poster was removed and/or changed.  Backlighting the poster revealed that change. So, backlighting a restored poster can reveal more than just restoration.   Okie

For more on this topic, talk to Jaime Mendez, right Okie?  ;D :-\


-Jeff

Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2018, 12:43:10 PM »
Backlighting can often times help prevent P.T. Barnum minute birth.

Okie

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2018, 08:05:32 PM »
Backlighting can often times help prevent P.T. Barnum minute birth.

Okie

har har

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Offline crowzilla

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 10:56:52 AM »
Hi Sunday and Jeff,  Well, being an original poster can make for an interesting discussion as well.  I've seen cases where the date information on a poster was removed and/or changed.  Backlighting the poster revealed that change. So, backlighting a restored poster can reveal more than just restoration.   Okie

Not just date information, I've seen examples of original Spanish language- US posters, where the Spanish title was removed in an attempt to pass the poster off as an English only original.
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Offline okiehawker

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2018, 09:17:55 PM »
Not just date information, I've seen examples of original Spanish language- US posters, where the Spanish title was removed in an attempt to pass the poster off as an English only original.

Subterfuge via scrapery?  Say it ain't so, Crow!  Good grief.  Okie

Offline crowzilla

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2018, 04:12:46 AM »
Subterfuge via scrapery?  Say it ain't so, Crow!  Good grief.  Okie

Heritage properly identified this one of course, but not all auctions houses (or sellers) do (or would even know it was altered).
https://movieposters.ha.com/itm/horror/the-mummy-s-tomb-universal-1942-spanish-one-sheet-27-x-41-/a/57054-26243.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Casablanca 1947 Belgian
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2018, 12:15:49 PM »
Quite an impressive "alteration job" there, Sean, going from this:



to this:





-Jeff