Author Topic: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........  (Read 322 times)

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So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« on: April 12, 2018, 10:59:56 PM »
just like the headline says, I just had a fake in my office

I don't want to get into it too deeply yet, because it involved a major auction house in Los Angeles (no it was not Profiles) that sold this poster a decade ago & the current owner may have to deal with this issue on behalf of the estate the poster is part of.

Without any names, here is why this is important for me to post, even without further facts:

1) it was NOT a horror-sf item.
2) It was a poster for a major US title that goes for several thousand dollars
3) it means there are still Haggard fakes in circulation and everyone needs to continue to be vigilant when buying restored items


I cannot stress to you people how big this post really is. There is still danger in our hobby.

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 11:24:50 PM »
OK, to summarize. 
A new poster, of unknown title and unknown size is something you have determined is a Haggard fake.
It is not Uni horror
It is semi-valuable, but not stratospheric (several thousand)

Doesn't narrow it down much, does it?  So now I have to be paranoid of every pre-90 piece of paper I buy?
IIRC, the haggard scam was performed on heavy card stock posters, primarily lobby cards.  Could also be applied to 1/2 sheets, inserts and 30x40s.
I believe he took a contemporary card/poster of similar vintage and stripped the surface layer by sanding it clean.  He then created a new image of a more valuable poster and bound it to the backing.

If that is so, 1 sheets, 3 sheets, quads and most foreign paper should be safe.
Am I mistaken?
Jay

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 11:32:56 PM »
OK, to summarize. 
A new poster, of unknown title and unknown size is something you have determined is a Haggard fake.
It is not Uni horror
It is semi-valuable, but not stratospheric (several thousand)

Doesn't narrow it down much, does it?  So now I have to be paranoid of every pre-90 piece of paper I buy?
IIRC, the haggard scam was performed on heavy card stock posters, primarily lobby cards.  Could also be applied to 1/2 sheets, inserts and 30x40s.
I believe he took a contemporary card/poster of similar vintage and stripped the surface layer by sanding it clean.  He then created a new image of a more valuable poster and bound it to the backing.

If that is so, 1 sheets, 3 sheets, quads and most foreign paper should be safe.
Am I mistaken?

Jay, there are reasons I'm not revealing more information, because it relates to legal issues that may arise later and I have no intention of damaging the reputations of anyone or any company with innuendo or even factual information unless it becomes necessary. I believe people who do not use such care on such issues are careless or seeking a personal benefit at the expense of their competition and that those things are wrong.

now, if you want to look at it intelligently, everyone who buys vintage paper that is backed only really needs to do one thing: carry a loupe.

you look at the white border area and if there is dot matrix printing in the area where there should be no printing at all - it's fake!

o/w, like myself, you can always buy a minimum of restored items and only when such item is so rare there is no other expectation you might find it again soon.

by the way, Haggard faked an Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein 6 sheet we know about as well as a CFTBL 3 sheet and a wide assortment of one sheets

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 11:40:41 PM »
Fair enough, Rich.
Like many here (most?) I buy the bulk of my material from what I consider to be reputable auction houses or dealers.  Most of that business is online, so I don't have an opportunity to pre-examine in the detail you suggest.  I have to rely on the reputation of the dealer.  I do examine items as you suggest when received with expectations that the seller will take the item back if something is wrong.  Has never happened to me, but I only fish in the shallows of that pond.
Jay

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 11:47:59 PM »
I had a bunch of fakes in my office 2 years ago that I caught.. 50's stuff, all horror-sf, but the thing is.. some only sell for 100-200 each, so the pool of fakes goes down into the shallows

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Offline crowzilla

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 02:59:37 AM »
I had a bunch of fakes ... some only sell for 100-200 each, so the pool of fakes goes down into the shallows

This is very true. I've had fakes of the Ichabod & Mr. Toad Disney lobby set sent to me (very nice ones, even down to the ink transfer stains on the back), as well as lobbies from key 50s sci-fi titles like Day the Earth Stood Still and Creature From the Black Lagoon.
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Offline Harry Caul

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 09:30:53 AM »
Wow, thanks for alerting us Rich.  This opens a whole new can of worms...

Timing: Do you believe the fake you handled is from the original batch of Haggard fakes or something newly created? 
Provenance: Did the seller mention when/where they acquired it -- was it a private sale or did it deceive and pass through other dealer/auctioneer's hands first?
Restoration: I thought the reason Mendez wasn't prosecuted was because he assisted authorities in creating a list of all the fraudulent posters.  Does this mean either A) that he lied, or B) other restorers are/were also involved? 
Identification: Could you take a close-up picture of the print patterns you mentioned in the border?  There are cheap (~$10) macro lens attachments for smart phones that should resolve the pattern. 
Mastermind: When you say "Haggard Fake" do you mean it was created using the same techniques as the Uni-Horror Haggards or is there something in particular that ties it directly to Haggard?  Could this be the work of a copy cat -- aka a new master forger?

Thanks again Rich. 

Offline CSM

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 09:49:19 AM »
A devious new master forger?!  Oh the intrigue!  >:D
Chris

Offline crowzilla

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 10:41:44 AM »
Restoration: I thought the reason Mendez wasn't prosecuted was because he assisted authorities in creating a list of all the fraudulent posters.  Does this mean either A) that he lied, or B) other restorers are/were also involved? 
Mastermind: When you say "Haggard Fake" do you mean it was created using the same techniques as the Uni-Horror Haggards or is there something in particular that ties it directly to Haggard?  Could this be the work of a copy cat -- aka a new master forger?

Can't answer all of the questions, but I can assist with these.
Your thought on the Restoration topic is incorrect, and Mende was never able to produce a complete list of every item he made or how many copies of each
I believe that Rich is referring more to the Haggard technique, as there is no evidence Haggard produced anything other than sci-fi/horror titles.
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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 12:11:30 PM »
Thanks for the info and alert, Rich and Sean.

Tho, because the title of this thread specifically refers to the poster as "a Haggard fake" and not a "Haggard-style" fake, at least by that wording, certainly makes it sound like a KHaggard-produced, non-scifi/horror item.

So we need a little more info here on if this is an actual "KH original" or a copycat fake, since Sean said that KH never did anything other than horror-scifi titles. (And no, Im not asking for any title, either).

Now to wait for the rest of the story.

 thumbsup.gif


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Offline Harry Caul

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 12:25:13 PM »
Can't answer all of the questions, but I can assist with these.
Your thought on the Restoration topic is incorrect, and Mende was never able to produce a complete list of every item he made or how many copies of each

Wasn't his whole claim to innocence resting on him just doing a job at the request of someone else?  Yet he has no records of those jobs?!?!?  And yet people in the hobby still give him business and access to high quality originals...

I believe that Rich is referring more to the Haggard technique, as there is no evidence Haggard produced anything other than sci-fi/horror titles.

Maybe it should be called the Mendez technique then...

Offline cabmangray

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 12:41:06 PM »
If this question is pushing it, just ignore it, but can you at least narrow it down to a decade? Or if not that, a genre?

Offline crowzilla

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 01:14:30 PM »
If this question is pushing it, just ignore it, but can you at least narrow it down to a decade? Or if not that, a genre?

30s/40s Iconic film(s)/Academy Award winner(s)

And again, I believe it is highly doubtful this was produced by (or at the request of) Haggard.


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Online erik1925

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2018, 02:29:32 PM »
If this item turns out NOT to be a Haggard owned/produced/co-created item, then it might be a good idea to re-title this thread, so that folks arent worried that Haggard was involved in material that was outside the sci-fi and horror genres.


-Jeff

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 03:54:02 PM »
Matt:

.... sold this poster a decade ago...

that's 2008, prior to the discovery of the Haggard fraud


30s/40s Iconic film(s)/Academy Award winner(s)

And again, I believe it is highly doubtful this was produced by (or at the request of) Haggard.

Sean. I disagree. I am fairly certain this is indeed a Haggard fake on a Jaime backing.

and folks, there are reasons I'm not mentioning more than I have. The owner may have recourse for one thing, and I have no intention of besmirching the reputation of any auction house or dealer regarding this issue. You take the information for what it's worth, that you have to be paying attention to restored posters and it is wise to carry a loupe with you to examine closely anything.

I will not be posting any pictures of this item, I will not be posting the auction house name

fakes still exist in the wild and I have no doubt that many will see the light of day for years to come


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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 04:54:44 PM »
For those of us not in the know, who is Haggard?

T
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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 05:43:06 PM »
Just put his name into the general search here on apf and you'll find any number of posts and threads about him or mentioning him, from over the years.  thumbsup.gif

Here's one, to whet your appetite:  http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,4081.0.html
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 08:09:07 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 09:41:41 PM »
Funny.  Itís actually the very first time I hear this name.

Maybe I should pay closer attention.

T
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Offline jayn_j

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Re: So, I just had a Haggard Fake in my office...........
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2018, 11:02:35 AM »
Funny.  Itís actually the very first time I hear this name.

Maybe I should pay closer attention.

T

Riiiiiight  ;D
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