Thomas Loce Story - Obviously a Counterfeit Poster

[AdamCarterJones]

This is a long story short...

We all know Thomas Loce sells counterfeit posters as originals, and more often than not gets away with it.

Well, I decided to experiment because the only thing I had to lose was my time.
I knew I'd get my money back if the poster was, as expected, fake.
So, I bought a poster on eBay via one of his auctions: a Moonraker UK Quad (Seiko advertising tie-in). 

I was 99% certain it would turn out to be counterfeit, because come on, this is Loce we're talking about!
Anyway, I paid for it, it arrived pretty quick and as soon as I saw it I knew it was counterfeit. 

I gave Loce the chance to own up and at the beginning he accepted it was not original, but he wanted it returned and would only refund me when he had checked it.

"...Hmm, I don't think so as I know your game..." I thought.

People had returned items to him before and either had not been refunded or he disputed their claims which eBay found in his favour. I wasn't taking that chance. Plus, I wasn't returning a counterfeit item to him so he could rip off someone who didn't know as much and get away with it. I told eBay I knew what he was up to, warned and implored them to investigate him.

He then changed his story, denied the poster was counterfeit and refused to refund me. Big mistake. 
He said that the negative feedback I left him would be deleted by eBay because they would then know the truth; he might as well have called me a liar.
I told him I expected this from him and explained the feedback wouldn't be removed as I only state the facts.

He subsequently claimed my comments about him were defamation, which was a load of bollocks because I know only too well what it's like to be victim of defamation.
He was trying all of his scaremongering tactics  , which on some would have worked, but not on me.

I called eBay and after much talk with their staff, who in the most part were great, I sent them the proof that it was fake as I had an original to compare it to.
Through Bond Posters, the indisputable facts were laid out with clarity in an official capacity (even though I purchased the poster from my business account, they wouldn't accept an evaluation from me personally as per their policy, which I understood). Because the information sent to them was clear, eBay staff agreed it was counterfeit. 

eBay found in my favour, refunded me in full and have began an investigation into Thomas Loce. 
And no, I did not return the counterfeit poster to him.

Loce thought he was going to get away with it, but he hadn't expected to be up against me. 
Maybe it's just me, but if something is indisputably clear and accurate I will stand by that and go all the way no matter who the person is.

If you know something is truly counterfeit he, and others like him, cannot hide.

[CSM]

When he starts calling your place of employment trying to get you fired make sure you hire Mel as your defence counsel 

[crowzilla]

awesome - nice job!

[erik1925]

Way to go, Adam.

Keep us posted on any follow-ups that might happen, too.

[AdamCarterJones]

When he starts calling your place of employment trying to get you fired make sure you hire Mel as your defence counsel 

  he does ha!

awesome - nice job!

Cheers!
Deserves everything he gets.

Way to go, Adam.

Keep us posted on any follow-ups that might happen, too.

If there are, I will let you guys know.
However, I doubt I will hear anything now as eBay's investigation is their business and I'm not party to it other than they having my evidence to use against him.

[eatbrie]

OH MY GOD!!!!  BEST NEWS OF THE DAY!!!!!  WAY TO GO, ADAM.




I'm especially intrigued by: "eBay found in my favour, refunded me in full and have began an investigation into Thomas Loce.  "

Is this for real?  Mel, are you reading this?  Can something happen?  This guy is the ABSOLUTE WORST.

T

[Simes]

Fair play indeed Adam...

[AdamCarterJones]

I'm especially intrigued by: "eBay found in my favour, refunded me in full and have began an investigation into Thomas Loce.  "

Is this for real?  Mel, are you reading this?  Can something happen?  This guy is the ABSOLUTE WORST.

T

100% mate. After going through the normal channels, I thought "Hold on! I can get this sorted quicker!"...therefore I contacted the head of eBay UK over it last Friday/Saturday and the case was closed on Monday. Result! (I'm a member of the eBay Seller Council and met him last October so that helped a little!)

We just need more people in the USA to do the same. eBay said on the phone that had I been in the USA it would have been easier to rectify.
I cannot stand anyone selling counterfeit material as original, no matter what it is. Fair enough if it's labelled as such, but that is few and far between.

Fair play indeed Adam...

Cheers!

[cabmangray]

Congrats, Adam! Well done! Kick him where it hurts - in the wallet.

What's really stupid about all this is if the little slimeball was upfront and say "these are reprints/reproductions/fakes", there would be no problems. The dishonesty of it all will fuck him up every time.

[erik1925]

If there are, I will let you guys know.
However, I doubt I will hear anything now as eBay's investigation is their business and I'm not party to it other than they having my evidence to use against him.

Adam, I was more meaning if you had any follow up "spoutings," eruptions or yelling from Loce himself, directed at you.

Isnt he one to throw tantrums now and then, when honest customers have challenged him, or called him out on his fake sales?

[guest4955]

Good job Adam. Drinks all ‘round so to speak.

So here’s the sale in Q:





What were the “indicia of fakery”? Size, fuzziness, colors, folds, acid-tanning, etc? Or lack thereof?

*****

Not to be a “story topper” but “tangling” with Loce is a “Shakespearean conundrum”!

Once he deemed me an enemy, he:

-filed a bar complaint against me
- created fake websites mentioning my name
- called eBay and complained about me contacting defrauded buyers
- sent me many emails claiming his “cousin lawyer” was going to sue me and cited astoundingly nasty litigation he had successfully pursued against a TV station
- I’ve forgotten any more bombs he threw

As it happens I was a B+ lawyer with 15+ years legal experience and generally regarded his antics as “legal buffoonery.” I drafted a 15 page complaint against him and emailed it to him.He piped down and his antics ceased.

But a private lawyer would have charged several thousand dollars just for that preliminary effort! And in the US a successful plaintiff cannot recover his own attorney fees (unlike U.K.).

His hyper-aggressive gangster moves + 99% eBay positive rate + legal resources + normally instant refunds + fees he generates for eBay + some/most(?) of his wares are legit = untouchable for all practical purposes.

*****

Anyways I’ve reached a “lifetime limit” on dealing with him - although I did buy one controversial poster indirectly from him. So great somebody else punched him 

[AdamCarterJones]

Congrats, Adam! Well done! Kick him where it hurts - in the wallet.

What's really stupid about all this is if the little slimeball was upfront and say "these are reprints/reproductions/fakes", there would be no problems. The dishonesty of it all will fuck him up every time.

Exactly!

Adam, I was more meaning if you had any follow up "spoutings," eruptions or yelling from Loce himself, directed at you.

Isnt he one to throw tantrums now and then, when honest customers have challenged him, or called him out on his fake sales?

Sorry, Jeff.
Heard nothing from him.
Before I contacted eBay UK direct, he said he wasn't going to reply to me anymore...then he sent me a message and I said "What are you doing? I thought you weren't going to reply!" along with other stuff.

Good job Adam. Drinks all ‘round so to speak.

So here’s the sale in Q:

What were the “indicia of fakery”? Size, fuzziness, colors, folds, acid-tanning, etc? Or lack thereof?

Cheers!
Briefly, the resolution is off, lights are too light and darks are too dark, paper is too white on the back etc.
I'll have the whole thing on the upgraded Bond site when I get round to it as I'm mega busy with the new sales site and another business venture.

His hyper-aggressive gangster moves + 99% eBay positive rate + legal resources + normally instant refunds + fees he generates for eBay + some/most(?) of his wares are legit = untouchable for all practical purposes.

That's the thing about him, but I hope eBay will do something about it, especially since he showed his true colours by denying it was fake and refusing to refund me. He's a fraud and should be kicked off eBay altogether and I told them that.

Anyways I’ve reached a “lifetime limit” on dealing with him - although I did buy one controversial poster indirectly from him. So great somebody else punched him 

He needs to be kicked, punched and slapped all the way to prison in my opinion!

[Harry Caul]

So awesome you did this Adam!  Each of us in the hobby owes you a beer!   

[erik1925]

Now to see if Ebay sticks to its end of the bargain and follows through.

[oldposterho]

I was going to say at least that's one repro he won't be able to re-sell but, of course, he'll just print up more.

Well done, Adam.

[erik1925]

100% mate. After going through the normal channels, I thought "Hold on! I can get this sorted quicker!"...therefore I contacted the head of eBay UK over it last Friday/Saturday and the case was closed on Monday. Result! (I'm a member of the eBay Seller Council and met him last October so that helped a little!)

We just need more people in the USA to do the same. eBay said on the phone that had I been in the USA it would have been easier to rectify.
I cannot stand anyone selling counterfeit material as original, no matter what it is. Fair enough if it's labelled as such, but that is few and far between.

Cheers!

If loce's butt is continually held to the fire, maybe, just maybe something will change, they will not allow him to sell, or whatever else Ebay could try.

Thing is, Adam, I think I recall people in the USA making complaints directly to ebay in the past, once they had also been sold a crappy looking repro poster, and it had all sort of fallen on deaf ears (along with loce's negative feedback being removed).

So when ebay told you that had this happened in the US rather than with you in the UK, I wonder what they would have done differently, if anything, since the past, US complaints about Loce seemed to fall thru the Ebay cracks.

[AdamCarterJones]

So awesome you did this Adam!  Each of us in the hobby owes you a beer!   

I like Alien '79 and Aliens, so I don't mind if any of you want to send me some original Alien gear!   

I was going to say at least that's one repro he won't be able to re-sell but, of course, he'll just print up more.

Well done, Adam.

Cheers.
I was adamant I wasn't returning the poster...but like you say, no doubt he will print more!

If loce's butt is continually held to the fire, maybe, just maybe something will change, they will not allow him to sell, or whatever else Ebay could try.

Thing is, Adam, I think I recall people in the USA making complaints directly to ebay in the past, once they had also been sold a crappy looking repro poster, and it had all sort of fallen on deaf ears (along with loce's negative feedback being removed).

So when ebay told you that had this happened in the US rather than with you in the UK, I wonder what they would have done differently, if anything, since the past, US complaints about Loce seemed to fall thru the Ebay cracks.

I think what it is is this - if there is unequivocal proof a product is counterfeit (particularly if it is advertised as genuine), eBay will do something about it, but you have got to put the time into it. You have to sign an affidavit etc because what you say can be used in court. If more people take him to task and agree to sign declarations eBay will have no option but to consider investigating him on a larger scale. Loce manages to get around most complaints by disagreeing with buyers comments and having feedback removed, as well as threatening those buyers with x, y and z.

With me, I couldn't have given a damn what he said...the truth cannot be argued with in court. It also helped that I had met the head of eBay UK, as mentioned earlier.

I'll be contacting eBay soon to check up on what is happening with him and so will let all of you know what they say.

[Simes]

Cracking story...good luck with all.