Author Topic: January 2018  (Read 19817 times)

Offline crowzilla

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2018, 05:17:10 PM »
Right, but I was talking to Matt about that Casablanca poster he sold for $107,000 a few months ago, and I was taken aback by what Heritage took for selling the poster.  You may be right by saying that Bruce would have not got $100k for it (although we'll never know), but pocketing $30k+ for selling a $100k poster is just obscene to me.  Bruce's 15%, ethically speaking, sounds much better.  Nothing to do with Grey, who's a great guy.  His company sets the rules.

T

Easiest way to find out is to go ahead and send Bruce a $100K poster and see how much he gets for it.

Lower commissions always sound better (hey I think it should be 5-10% at that level), but the reality of course is that very few items can command those prices. HA broke the $100K barrier I think something like 10 times last year, it's a small % of overall items, but there is no doubt that they market EVERYWHERE. I see Heritage ads all over the net, they are doing tons to grow the entire market and are obviously benefiting from it.

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Offline BruceH

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2018, 06:35:28 PM »
I heard that before.  Am I correct by saying that if a poster ends at $100, the seller gets less than $65?  Like 35% less?  I understand the seller doesn't pay the buyer's premium, but the final price is what someone is willing to pay for the item, so the seller get 35% less, vs 28% with Bruce.  35% seems outrageous to me.  More than a third.  So HA may sell for more, but they also pocket more.  Honestly, if I was going to sell my collection, I don't know who I would turn to.

T

Realistically, while lots of auctions would fight to get to auction your $500 and up stuff, who can auction a really high percentage of your collection, the $5 to $50 stuff? There are a few places you could consign it to who would take 50 or 100 years to auction it all. You could sell it for cash, but you would get pennies on the dollar.

And I won't spend the rest of my life taking low value consignments, and the day I announce that all consignments must have a realistic minimum of $30 or more, there will be a lot of people saying, "I wish I had consigned before", because the alternatives are as I outlined above.

And you might do an "apples to apples and oranges to oranges" comparison of what different auctions get for the same items. Even taking into account that you never know for sure what sales are real, it still can be a real eye-opening experience.
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Re: January 2018
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2018, 07:51:01 PM »
1) I'm getting beat in the "live auction," and I ain't hanging around for them. I guess HA was smart to switch to that a while back for its weekly auctions.

2) I suspected that HA lost money selling "second tier" MPs on eBay, probably to entice bidders to HA auctions. They terminated that in the last three years.

3) I also assume that they don't make much money on the weekly auctions, just keep buyers around for the Signature Auctions, which generate $2.5 mill each (um, as I vaguely recall).

Offline DekeThornton

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2018, 10:37:10 PM »
Undoubtedly Heritage spends money on marketing: glossy catalogs, internet display advertising, etc.

But another element that I think might come into play is that the auction items for the Signature Auctions are published far in advance (in the print catalogs, but also online where you can add to your tracked items well in advance of the auction).

A while back Bruce started publishing the auction previews for major auctions around a week or two in advance (which is much appreciated!), but it is still much less lead time compared to HA for prospective bidders to discover high-dollar items.

My thinking is that for the really high-dollar items you are talking about a very small pool of potential bidders.  So as a consigner you'd want to be damn sure those bidders show up on auction day.  If one of those potential high-dollar bidders isn't aware and isn't around to be an underbidder, you could have a significantly deflated result.

Are the people who have >$100k to bid on posters refreshing the auction sites every week to look for new stuff? Or do they count on flipping through the catalogs weeks in advance?

Note that I am a happy customer of both emovieposter and HA, and I was happy with an emovieposter consignment I made in the past (including one $1k result which I believe was an all-time high for that particular item).

I admit that I have no actual knowledge of the habits or mindsets of people who bid hundreds of thousands on posters, and am just speculating.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:38:22 PM by DekeThornton »

guest4955

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2018, 12:27:15 AM »
Undoubtedly Heritage spends money on marketing: glossy catalogs, internet display advertising, etc.

But another element that I think might come into play is that the auction items for the Signature Auctions are published far in advance (in the print catalogs, but also online where you can add to your tracked items well in advance of the auction).

A while back Bruce started publishing the auction previews for major auctions around a week or two in advance (which is much appreciated!), but it is still much less lead time compared to HA for prospective bidders to discover high-dollar items.

My thinking is that for the really high-dollar items you are talking about a very small pool of potential bidders.  So as a consigner you'd want to be damn sure those bidders show up on auction day.  If one of those potential high-dollar bidders isn't aware and isn't around to be an underbidder, you could have a significantly deflated result.

Are the people who have >$100k to bid on posters refreshing the auction sites every week to look for new stuff? Or do they count on flipping through the catalogs weeks in advance?

Note that I am a happy customer of both emovieposter and HA, and I was happy with an emovieposter consignment I made in the past (including one $1k result which I believe was an all-time high for that particular item).

I admit that I have no actual knowledge of the habits or mindsets of people who bid hundreds of thousands on posters, and am just speculating.

Well said and said well!

BTW randomly checked inflation-adjusted (2017):


Offline Simes

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2018, 06:20:25 AM »
3) I also assume that they don't make much money on the weekly auctions, just keep buyers around for the Signature Auctions, which generate $2.5 mill each (um, as I vaguely recall).

I too was wondering if in fact the weekly auctions was to shore up the Sig auctions' attendance...  Who knows?

Offline erik1925

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2018, 12:15:13 PM »
Easiest way to find out is to go ahead and send Bruce a $100K poster and see how much he gets for it.

Lower commissions always sound better (hey I think it should be 5-10% at that level), but the reality of course is that very few items can command those prices. HA broke the $100K barrier I think something like 10 times last year, it's a small % of overall items, but there is no doubt that they market EVERYWHERE. I see Heritage ads all over the net, they are doing tons to grow the entire market and are obviously benefiting from it.

Sean, any idea how HA does on average, in their weekly auctions?

I would assume that they do quite well, for the most part?

i feel the potential of a new thread coming on, too, so that all this great discussion isnt lost (forgotten about) once the Jan 2018 Acquisitions thread comes to a close.  :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 12:19:43 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline jayn_j

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2018, 12:36:05 PM »
Well said and said well!

BTW randomly checked inflation-adjusted (2017):

Overall, I think adjusting posters for inflation is not realistic.  The poster market has been so volatile.  It gets affected by the overall economy, age of the collectors and trends in the films themselves.  I believe all those factors will drown out inflation effects.
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Offline crowzilla

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2018, 12:49:21 PM »
Sean, any idea how HA does on average, in their weekly auctions?
I would assume that they do quite well, for the most part?

They did almost $43,000 on 452 items last week (https://movieposters.ha.com/c/auction-home.zx?saleNo=161803&ic=Items-ClosedAuctions-Closed-BrowseAuctionInfo-071713). Not sure what their average is, but it seems the few times I have checked it's always in that $40-50K range. I know they post it the week after the auction and thought it might be somewhere else on the site, but don't see it right now.
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Offline erik1925

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2018, 01:02:02 PM »
They did almost $43,000 on 452 items last week (https://movieposters.ha.com/c/auction-home.zx?saleNo=161803&ic=Items-ClosedAuctions-Closed-BrowseAuctionInfo-071713). Not sure what their average is, but it seems the few times I have checked it's always in that $40-50K range. I know they post it the week after the auction and thought it might be somewhere else on the site, but don't see it right now.

That sure isn't peanuts (to me anyhow). Simple math then shows a nice profit each and every month, in the $160K'ish+ range. clap clap


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Offline erik1925

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2018, 01:08:03 PM »
Indeed, and considering we talked about Thai sellers and possibly fake posters or unreliable sellers, I wonder what is your seller ?

It was a seller here in the US.


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guest4955

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2018, 01:25:53 PM »
Overall, I think adjusting posters for inflation is not realistic.  The poster market has been so volatile.  It gets affected by the overall economy, age of the collectors and trends in the films themselves.  I believe all those factors will drown out inflation effects.

I should also add that Christie's auctioned the early posters.

As I recall they stopped auctioning posters/prints bc the program managers quit (or maybe insufficiently profitable?)

Anyways, when they ran occasional MP auctions in the early 2010s, their bidders were obviously price insensitive and usually bid 2-3 times HA Sig prices, all my bids got "left in the dust." (Although no doubt there's a more apt Brit phrase :)

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2018, 03:19:21 PM »
I agree.  Part of the reason is the buyer's premium that increases cost by at least $20.  It makes no sense to bid on a $20 poster when the final bill will be $40 higher.  For example, I won a set of lobbies for $34 last year  The final bill was just under $70 with BP and shipping.  It isn't realistic to purchase multiple items to keep shipping costs down because the number of lots is much smaller.

For those reasons, I generally will not bid at HA on anything under $200.

Jay, the BP has nothing to do with anything. When I bid, I bid knowing I had to add on 19%, so I reduce my actual bid accordingly

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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2018, 03:20:56 PM »
I heard that before.  Am I correct by saying that if a poster ends at $100, the seller gets less than $65?  Like 35% less?  I understand the seller doesn't pay the buyer's premium, but the final price is what someone is willing to pay for the item, so the seller get 35% less, vs 28% with Bruce.  35% seems outrageous to me.  More than a third.  So HA may sell for more, but they also pocket more.  Honestly, if I was going to sell my collection, I don't know who I would turn to.

T

but if the poster is selling for more money (or even A LOT  more money) that balances out.

I sold some stuff in their last Sig auction that went for 2-3x what I was asking at a retail level, so I got back about double what I was asking.
hard to find something wrong with that.

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Offline ddilts399

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2018, 04:37:48 PM »
I agree.  Part of the reason is the buyer's premium that increases cost by at least $20.  It makes no sense to bid on a $20 poster when the final bill will be $40 higher.  For example, I won a set of lobbies for $34 last year  The final bill was just under $70 with BP and shipping.  It isn't realistic to purchase multiple items to keep shipping costs down because the number of lots is much smaller.

For those reasons, I generally will not bid at HA on anything under $200.

I agree, I dont really participate in the weekly at all anymore just to stay away from the lure of buying the cheap item only to pay 40% more by the time it gets to me.  It really is a hell of a business model, no inventory cost, and make money from the buyer and seller both!

Bruce, I hope you dont start turning stuff away as I like trying to pull in the cheap stuff too and honestly I think the lower priced stuff actually helps the bids on the items that get higher prices, just by an increase in bidder traffic.


Offline jayn_j

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2018, 05:06:06 PM »
Well, sometimes there are good items in the weekly.  2 weeks ago, I bought a Top Hat and a Roberta card. Both are Astaire/Rogers titles.  Probably sold for Bruce prices, and would have gone higher in a Sig auction.  Like most things in this hobby, you need to know your stuff and watch carefully for deals.
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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2018, 05:09:40 PM »
I buy something about 50% of the time in the weeklies, with them generally being some gambling item as my Chandler collection only needs some specifics at this point and the rest is way too expensive (like the French Big Sleep posters)

if they have a lobby card I need, I bid until I can't stand it anymore and believe me, I will never get out financially from my gambling collection, so value is not the arbiter of my bid.

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2018, 05:34:55 PM »
I buy something about 50% of the time in the weeklies, with them generally being some gambling item as my Chandler collection only needs some specifics at this point and the rest is way too expensive (like the French Big Sleep posters)

if they have a lobby card I need, I bid until I can't stand it anymore and believe me, I will never get out financially from my gambling collection, so value is not the arbiter of my bid.

I sympathize.  I sometimes think I am the only person collecting old musicals, but for some reason there is always somebody there bidding me up.  Since he is the only one left when I sell, he'll get my stuff for a song :)
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Online eatbrie

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2018, 05:46:08 PM »
And I won't spend the rest of my life taking low value consignments, and the day I announce that all consignments must have a realistic minimum of $30 or more, there will be a lot of people saying, "I wish I had consigned before", because the alternatives are as I outlined above.

So what will you do, Bruce, if someone likes me comes up to you and says: “Here’s my 14,000 pieces collection.  There are a lot of pieces above $1,000, even more above $500, but also a lot for less than $30, and I want you to auction them all separately or I go somewhere else, do it myself or don’t sell it at all.”  Do you change your policy or say fuck off, I don’t have time for your shit.

T
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:06:40 PM by eatbrie »
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Offline crowzilla

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2018, 06:19:37 PM »
So what will you do, Bruce, if someone likes me comes up to you and says: “Here’s my 14,000 pieces collection.  There are a lot of pieces above $1,000, even more above $500, but also a lot for less than $30, and I want you to auction them all separately or I go somewhere else, do it myself or don’t sell it at all.”  Do you change your policy or say fuck off, I don’t have time for your shit.

T

When that time comes, it's probably because he is going to want to finally relax more (grandkids, take a vacation finally, whatever) and not put in all the hours with emovie and tell you that you missed your chance.

Remember that something like 75% of all Emovie auctions end below $30, if he cuts all that junk out he's only going to need 25% of the number of employees he has now (or less) and won't have the manpower to sell that kind of volume.

So you better send it all to him now, or your only option will be to sell to Rich and no one wants to see that happen.
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Offline BruceH

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2018, 07:41:02 PM »
Probably sold for Bruce prices, and would have gone higher in a Sig auction.

Jay, you reference this as though it is proven fact. How about making a chart of 100 or so items that have been sold both in Sig auctions and in Major Auctions (or in Weekly Auctions vs Thrice Weekly Auctions). I think you will find that this is a myth.

And of course, such a chart would not even begin to take into account that one site has hidden bidding.
We (eMoviePoster.com) hold 2,500 to 4,000 auctions every four weeks.
We have auctioned more movie paper for more money (in real sales) than any auction in the world.
We have the longest continuously running auctions of any auction, with over 1,914,280 to date from over 3,192 consignors.
See all of our current auctions in one gallery here: http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/all.html

Offline BruceH

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2018, 07:46:10 PM »
So what will you do, Bruce, if someone likes me comes up to you and says: “Here’s my 14,000 pieces collection.  There are a lot of pieces above $1,000, even more above $500, but also a lot for less than $30, and I want you to auction them all separately or I go somewhere else, do it myself or don’t sell it at all.”  Do you change your policy or say fuck off, I don’t have time for your shit.

T

If I change the way I auction, yes, it would be too late for me to auction all 14,000 pieces. I have done this for 28 years, and won't do it forever. I anticipate yet another change coming to the structure of my auctions and it would be for the third time. In 1999, I moved my entire business onto eBay, after experimenting for a couple of years there. In 2008 I moved my entire business OFF of eBay. Perhaps in 2018 I will make another significant change. But of course, you WOULD have other options on how to sell your collection.

But if you were to come to me soon, I would say I will gladly auction all of them separately, even the bottom of the barrel stuff. Timing is everything!
We (eMoviePoster.com) hold 2,500 to 4,000 auctions every four weeks.
We have auctioned more movie paper for more money (in real sales) than any auction in the world.
We have the longest continuously running auctions of any auction, with over 1,914,280 to date from over 3,192 consignors.
See all of our current auctions in one gallery here: http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/all.html

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2018, 07:54:34 PM »
I sympathize.  I sometimes think I am the only person collecting old musicals, but for some reason there is always somebody there bidding me up.  Since he is the only one left when I sell, he'll get my stuff for a song :)

yep.. Mine also. I sold a collection not long ago (book collection) that took me 20 years to assemble and I only got 1/2 what I had into it, if that
but so what, I don't get any money back after I go to Andre's French Restaurant for dinner.

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: January 2018
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2018, 09:17:30 PM »
Jay, you reference this as though it is proven fact. How about making a chart of 100 or so items that have been sold both in Sig auctions and in Major Auctions (or in Weekly Auctions vs Thrice Weekly Auctions). I think you will find that this is a myth.

And of course, such a chart would not even begin to take into account that one site has hidden bidding.

Well, I did use the word probably, which doesn't mean proven.  I do research both your history and theirs.

The Roberta card cost me about $300 with buyer's premium.  You've never sold that particular card, but other cards in VG-F condition have gone for between $200-$400, so we are in the ballpark.  This card had nice whimsy, but no Ginger.


The Top Hat card was first release and a nice portrait card of Fred and Ginger.  They Rated condition as 6.5.  It had some work done on the borders, so VG-G is a fair evaluation. I paid $1900 with BP. You only have lesser cards with prices from $240-1100.  You do show this card, but only as part of the archives.


So, I think I made a fair assessment.  I suspect the Top Hat card may have made your major though.  In any case, the prices from Heritage were in your ballpark, as much as one can compare apples to oranges.  Don't worry, you're still my go to auction site. :)
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Re: January 2018
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2018, 09:30:03 PM »
From EMP 2nite, went 2-0 (but no bargains, mistyped one bid):

Pulp Fiction (1994 JB2 SSR):More menacing than the US MP:



*****

Pan's Labyrinth (2007 JB2 SSR): Loverly....



*****

Too classy for these hinterlands, Jayn.....