Author Topic: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976  (Read 25193 times)

Offline wonka

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Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« on: November 17, 2017, 12:21:00 PM »
I realize this has been discussed several times across several forums over the years but want to resurrect the topic, if nothing else, as a friendly reminder to folks who have been around for a long time in the hobby as well as being a public service announcement for new folks, guests, and the like.

HA's condition descriptions, at least with posters, are basically meaningless if not a downright lie at times...especially with posters that have ANY issues.
I recently grabbed this Indy ToD UK OS (thanks to members with the heads up) that I posted in the wanteds here:

http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,12462.0.html

Bought this the other week from HA:

https://movieposters.ha.com/itm/adventure/indiana-jones-and-the-temple-of-doom-paramount-1984-british-one-sheet-27-x-40-adventure/a/161745-51217.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Poster arrived today and its a small disaster, nothing near their usual "Rolled, Fine+". There is nothing 'fine' about it, and while the photo shows a few tears and tatters, the poster in question is nothing like the visual depiction...its almost a completely different poster.  I would even allege that the photo is perhaps doctored up with a few quick visual adjustments by some intern there in Dallas...several rips on the borders are almost impossible to see in the pic, which as I look now seems to have been manipulated with some lighting or bloom effects.  Will post a pic of the actual thing in hand when I can.  I only paid $130something plus ship so will hold onto it until I find another to replace.

Regardless, I would be very careful with HA in this regard...not sure if they are lazy, intentionally misleading, or both...even ebay jackassery doesn't get to this level most of the time, and there's no BP to pay either.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:30:53 PM by wonka »
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Online Tob

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 02:56:21 PM »
That’s disappointing to hear :( curious to see how your photos compare.

I know you’re an Indy expert, so do you know if there are any tells between a real one and the rolled 27 x 40” reprints that seem to be out there? Is it just printing sharpness and paper age/feel?

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 03:32:20 PM »
You should post pictures side by side so we can all compare, because if the poster has been retouched, Grey should be made aware of it. 

Also, Grey will reimburse you immediately should you decide not to keep the poster.  I have emailed the guy at 8pm PST on a Sunday (10pm his time), he emails back immediately and makes you feel you're the most important person in the room.

T
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 04:24:41 PM by eatbrie »
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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 04:12:57 PM »
I can't stress this enough: grading can be subjective, especially when all dealers do not adhere to a common definition scale.

For instance, except for one dealer, everyone I know uses a C rating scale that goes from Poor to Near Mint. The one dealer who does not adhere to this scale has a proprietary scale that tops out at Fine, like book sellers do.

Everyone except for one dealer uses common terms to describe folded or rolled posters. One dealer calls rolled posters 'unfolded' which almost every other dealer says is incorrect, because that definition indicates an item was previously folded and is now rolled. A poster that has never been folded, cannot properly be described as unfolded by any dictionary definition. It is an incorrect description.

So with such disparities, it creates wildly varying specifications and until all dealers adopt a singular scale, such as have comic books, baseball cards, coins, stamps, book sellers etc, there will never be a time that everyone can mutually agree with anything.

Of course, there is a solution, which is that we all post grading definition scales on our websites to help the buyers decipher our meanings. That way, even with varying scales to some degree we can make a collector aware of what they can expect when they actually get our merchandise delivered.

Like T, I am curious to see pics of the poster in question

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 04:18:04 PM »
And if you spent $130.00 on this poster and arent happy, maybe just send it back if you feel it was mis-described or not shown the way you expected?

Were it a 10.00 poster i would likely keep it too, and wait for another to appear, but 130.00 is a nice little chunk of change and could be used for something you'd be totally happy with.



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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 05:43:41 PM »
I bought a $4000 poster over 10 years ago, it was described as NM condition (highest possible on linen) yet it had a larger than fist sized repainted area in a detailed scene. Contacted Grey I think but I wasn't going to go through returning a linen backed 6 sheet from OZ to USA

Offline erik1925

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 05:45:59 PM »
What movie was that for, Steve?

And when you notified Grey/HA about that fixed area that you discovered, what did they tell you?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 05:49:10 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline JCM

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 07:28:46 PM »
Funny how the guys who jump at the chance to rip certain dealers to shreds for stuff like this are just like, "Send it back if you don't like it."

Yeah, no shit. That's not the point here.

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 07:32:35 PM »
I've received 300+ MPs from HA and only one had an incorrect condition description....

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 07:44:36 PM »
I've received 300+ MPs from HA and only one had an incorrect condition description....

I can go further than that Mel. I've been satisfied with 98% of what I've gotten from professional dealers & auctions and that goes back decades.
That doesn't mean that all dealers can't make a mistake from time to time. The whole deal is whether you are willing to own up to it when you do.

there is also the customer who can never be pleased bit. A package gets lost, all I can do it try to replace or refund the items lost.
One guy recently wanted me to make good on 'expected profits' for when he might finally sell a poster he won in my auctions from a waylaid order that I was able to send duplicates of all but 2 posters, for which he got a refund, plus I included extra posters worth half what the missing posters were. The original package was eventually returned (long story). But he was pissed off because he was expecting to make $50 on one poster.. Not my problem, but what else did you want, beside the $60 in extra posters I gave you anyway? Some buyers can't be pleased.

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Offline wonka

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 08:22:29 PM »
Funny how the guys who jump at the chance to rip certain dealers to shreds for stuff like this are just like, "Send it back if you don't like it."

Yeah, no shit. That's not the point here.

Sums it up.

Will try to post pics of the poster tomorrow at some point when its daylight.

And to your points Rich, it goes without saying that not having common procedures across the board for all sellers/dealers is an issue but not THE issue here...calling something with many more rips and issues than even pictured, yet labeled "Rolled, fine+" is bonkers.
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Offline wonka

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 08:24:49 PM »
I can go further than that Mel. I've been satisfied with 98% of what I've gotten from professional dealers & auctions and that goes back decades.
That doesn't mean that all dealers can't make a mistake from time to time. The whole deal is whether you are willing to own up to it when you do.

there is also the customer who can never be pleased bit. A package gets lost, all I can do it try to replace or refund the items lost.
One guy recently wanted me to make good on 'expected profits' for when he might finally sell a poster he won in my auctions from a waylaid order that I was able to send duplicates of all but 2 posters, for which he got a refund, plus I included extra posters worth half what the missing posters were. The original package was eventually returned (long story). But he was pissed off because he was expecting to make $50 on one poster.. Not my problem, but what else did you want, beside the $60 in extra posters I gave you anyway? Some buyers can't be pleased.

seriously tho, what's this have to do with literally anything here?
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Online eatbrie

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 08:52:20 PM »
I feel bad telling you about the poster, Ben.

T
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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 10:02:44 PM »
And to your points Rich, it goes without saying that not having common procedures across the board for all sellers/dealers is an issue but not THE issue here...calling something with many more rips and issues than even pictured, yet labeled "Rolled, fine+" is bonkers.

well, as I said, it is a definition of terms.
What EMP calls 'Fine' is equal to C-9/10 on MPB. What I call 'Fine' is C-7

In Heritage's case for this poster, the listing does says specifically "It may have tears, creases, minor stains, and/or some soft folds." ergo, those issues should be expected, because they say so in the listing. Moreover, in Heritage's case, they rate 'Fine' as C-6 as noted on their site
https://movieposters.ha.com/tutorial/movieposters-grading.s

obviously, this is another variation in terms between different sellers. It would be good to adopt a general grading definition scale across all dealers, but note that even in comics, cards and coins - unless the same third-party grader (CGC or CBCS) is grading the item and encapsulating it (not possible for our hobby), it still becomes a subjective issue

Ultimately, it becomes necessary in our hobby to understand what to expect from each different auction, generally via experience.

I think I've only been sent back one item that the buyer considered incorrectly graded in the 349 auctions I have run since 2006 (my 350th one is currently running) and the buyer was correct in returning it. It was a Godfather card rated C-9 where I clearly missed some fingernail indentations reducing it to C-7 and at the same time, I sell tons of posters that could be rated C-9/10 or even C-10, but I still only rate them C-9 most of the time, so I don't have to inspect them with a loupe. I think I've rated less than 50 posters C-9/10 or better

but looking at HA's pic, C-6 seems to be a very fair grade. I'd like to see the image you can post


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Offline crowzilla

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 10:17:54 AM »
Poster arrived today and its a small disaster, nothing near their usual "Rolled, Fine+". There is nothing 'fine' about it, and while the photo shows a few tears and tatters, the poster in question is nothing like the visual depiction...its almost a completely different poster.

Biggest thing I see with this poster is it looks like while it was rolled it had something heavy on it and there are 8-10 (or more) very visible folds going across the length of the poster, plus some vertical folds.

Fine in Heritage is C-6, and I can't think of a single poster from the 80s onward that I would purchase in C-6 condition, but I guess it could always be a space filler until a nice one comes along.
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Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2017, 11:29:47 AM »
I looks like who ever processed that batch of photos crushed the highlights.  If you can't see any texture in the paper then the white point is set too high.

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2017, 11:46:35 AM »
I was trying to compare it to mine, and something is definitely off.  I'm no expert in photography, but the HA picture has definitely been doctored a bit.



T
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 11:50:04 AM by eatbrie »
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2017, 12:21:36 PM »
The overall color looks a bit washed out on the HA photo.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:48:39 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2017, 12:46:06 PM »


T, I took your image into photoshop.  To get them close-ish I had to boost contrast by 50%, raised exposure a half stop and then increased sharpness 200%.

Offline CSM

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2017, 01:07:16 PM »
It's been longstanding knowledge that HA clearly "boosts" at least some of their photos...
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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2017, 01:21:10 PM »
I wonder if the sharpness was raised so that the folds could be better seen?

sometimes it's hard to photograph and get all the defects to show, so is it better to have the tears at the bottom showing or the multiple fold lines throughout the poster showing?
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Offline wonka

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2017, 03:33:19 PM »
I cannot take photos today, but will get it going ASAP and will post soon so you guys can see.

If stuff was taken with natural daylight (yet controlled with indoor set up), that would help a ton. This one was clearly messed with in PS.
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Offline Undead

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 12:16:08 PM »
Just about every time I go after a poster there I pretty much always throw the image in photoshop, roll back the contrast and brightness to more normal or even slightly darker levels and the flaws usually pop right out. Will not always work but this has saved both me and a few other collectors I have done it for a few headaches over the years. I highly recommend that if you can, do the same whether HA or any other poster that looks suspect from any dealer.

An example is the above referenced ToD poster with the effects rolled back some, I spent less than two minutes on this so it can definitely be done better. Which is why I am anxiously going to wait on my only purchase from the weekend keeping my fingers crossed.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:21:02 PM by Undead »
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2017, 04:31:55 PM »
I cannot take photos today, but will get it going ASAP and will post soon so you guys can see.

If stuff was taken with natural daylight (yet controlled with indoor set up), that would help a ton. This one was clearly messed with in PS.

Any pics snapped yet, Ben?   prayer.gif

The suspense is killing us! 


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Offline AjTheGreat

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Re: Heritage condition descriptions: Bringing the LOLs since 1976
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2017, 11:41:45 PM »
Erik1925, do you remember when I complained to you about a poster that looked totally different then the pic and rating...reading this thread brought those bad feelings back how.


Any pics snapped yet, Ben?   prayer.gif

The suspense is killing us!