Author Topic: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?  (Read 5750 times)

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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There has been lots of discussion lately about items listed on auction websites that are noted as being incorrectly described during their sale

Heritage, when notified of such a discrepancy actually pulls the item down and does not let bidding proceed on mis-described items if they are notified

Apparently, not all sites remove the listing. They let an auction continue to the end and then they put the buyer on the spot to accept or refuse the item, post sale.

If I list an item that is incorrectly described, I also remove it, with the exception that if there are no bids yet, I do have the option of editing the listing and letting it continue.

Here's the issue
it isn't just about the winning bidder. It's about all the bidders. Would the underbidders have participated in an item if it had been correctly described as a re-issue, a reprint, bootleg or commercial poster?

if the answer is "no, I would not have bid on that if I knew it was (insert commercial, re-issue, bootleg here)" then that means the high bid is fallacious, because it was driven up to a price that it could not have achieved if it was described correctly

If a Belgian Casablanca poster is a 1960 re-issue or even suspected of not being the 1949-issued poster it is described as, isn't it really just a $300 poster rather than a $1400 poster and if so, why should anyone even consider asking a bidder if that is acceptable?

How does asking your buyer post-auction, or correcting your own mistake months or years later giving you a competitive advantage over any seller, including Little Sally selling posters and lemonade on the corner?

What say you collectors? Here's yur chance to be heard. VOTE!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:44:47 PM by MoviePosterBid.com »

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 02:48:13 PM »
From my POV, anything that might have even the slightest question about what it is, it date, where or when made etc, and regardless of the collectible, (so not just posters), should be removed (canceled), thoroughly (re)checked over, and then, if given a "clean bill of health," re-listed at a later time.

That way, both seller and buyer are protected and both also can feel confident in the item being offered.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:53:47 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 03:05:06 PM »
That way, both seller and buyer are protected and both also can feel confident in the item being offered.

 sm1

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Offline JCM

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 11:25:48 AM »
From my POV, anything that might have even the slightest question about what it is, it date, where or when made etc, and regardless of the collectible, (so not just posters), should be removed (canceled), thoroughly (re)checked over, and then, if given a "clean bill of health," re-listed at a later time.


So what happens when you have a bunch of different self-proclaimed "experts" all saying different things? One knows it's fake, one thinks it's questionable, one knows it's real. All are experienced. Whose opinion is valid?

I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.

That said, the best strategy is to pick someone of authority to trust and go with that person's info based on their history in the hobby. (How long have they been doing this? Is their reputation solid? Who are their references & sources? Are they quoting them publicly and offering them as points of contact for anyone questioning authenticity?)

If you go with Erik's concept, where even the slightest question causes immediate cancellation, half the stuff being sold right now would be cancelled, re-listed and adjusted according to all the "experts" out there.

Bad idea IMO.


Offline pratschm

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 11:55:05 AM »
I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.

 welcome1
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 12:02:01 PM »
The vast majority of items (posters or otherwise) auctioned by places like HA, MPB, EMP etc are correctly and accurately described and listed.

I was referring to the occasional item that might cause a question or raise a few red flags, when others, who may also collect in those specific areas, for example raise questions or comment. The actual number of so called "pulled to review" items would be very, very small. And only then, would be done if the auctioneer felt it was better to do so, to double check something out, and then re-list it later. Or to give more information, about how something was verified, as was done when EMP mentioned the UK expert that was consulted.

The same has been done by the folks mentioned above, from time to time, so the idea isn't a new concept.

And when anyone handles thousands of pieces, mistakes or errors can happen. At the end of the day, it's about trying to be as accurate in describing something as possible, nothing more.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 12:22:00 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline 50s

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2016, 04:56:17 PM »
I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.

 imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif imbecile.gif

Offline erik1925

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 10:54:37 PM »
Is that better or worse than lions and tigers and bears... (Oh My!)  ;D
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 11:50:19 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

Offline 50s

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 11:45:12 PM »
I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.


Plain weirdos are better than weird weirdos, no?


guest4531

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 03:39:29 AM »
I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.

It looks like you never approached the fine art market, it is worst there believe me !!

****************
This said, from my short experience in movie posters and here, I can say there are indeed some secrecy...  I guess the fact we are an inner circle of people with specific interest makes things difficult when it is about speaking publicly or semi-privately about bad apples.   If you ask advice on forum, precautious reply is all what you get :p 

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »
It looks like you never approached the fine art market, it is worst there believe me !!

****************
This said, from my short experience in movie posters and here, I can say there are indeed some secrecy...  I guess the fact we are an inner circle of people with specific interest makes things difficult when it is about speaking publicly or semi-privately about bad apples.   If you ask advice on forum, precautious reply is all what you get :p

as shysters go, the movie poster hobby has the least of them. Comic books and baseball cards, probably have the most. But that doesn't discount the coins hobby, the sports hobby (with massive frauds that have been perpetrated by some big players, like Mastro Auctions which resulted in jail terms) or a number of other hobbies like Coca Cola collectibles, automotive collectibles (plates and the like, not talking about the cars) or another hobby - Modern Art, which could possibly be the cheatingest, if you count by dollars spent.

but you have to ask what a shyster is. Is a shyster a person who just asks big prices, or people who are always trying to stab others with false narratives so they can claim a high ground over others, but are no better when you really discover who they are. [for the sake of this debate, we leave the complete thieves out of the picture, the forgers and the like. A crook, meaning a person who robs you by intentional misdescription, printing bootlegs, or forges Universal horror posters is clearly a top level shyster.]

shysters take many forms. They aren't all about stealing

back to the subject at hand.
James, it is important for people, especially dealers, to have the correct data when they sell. This is generally accomplished by having a philosophy that you don't want offer a piece that is of some questionable information. One reason is that - most especially in the internet era - any mistake you make gets propagated throughout the system. If you call a poster an original release when it is a reissue, that information gets assimilated and creates confusion, for years to come.
but that is a mild issue that is more easily corrected than others.

let's take the Vacation 'teaser' one sheet that we discussed recently. Only one place I know has sold & described the poster in this way. When it was asked how that determination was made, the one place pretty much refused to answer, no matter how many times they were asked in that thread. Completely non-helpful. People are asking because they want to know. If you know, post the information. If on the other hand, the whole definition of this poster is based on nothing more than "we THINK it is".. that's a mistake, and it's a willful mistake. (does that make the people who refuse to answer such questions a 'shyster'?)
so yes, it is important to get the right information

don't get me wrong, I totally understand that people make mistakes, but you don't compound it by making more mistakes.
I also can understand how a big business, staffed mostly by non-poster collectors, non-poster dealers and short-term experienced people can make mistakes.
For instance, in my world, one of the identification methods may not actually come from a visual inspection - it may come from a handling inspection. My fingers touching the poster in question and feeling the surface of the paper might make me suspicious, or the thickness of the paper. This can't be taught so easily, it has to be learned over many years with the help of other people who know more than you do. So if the person(s) who 'know' haven't handled the poster and a neophyte is writing the description, you are more likely to result in mistakes somewhere along the line.

One of the great things about movie poster people is that they will share information, even if as BigBoss mentions, sometimes the information isn't easily forthcoming because as collectors, sometimes you want to wait until you have your copy, or as a dealer maybe you want to be able to score some profits by being able to buy an item without competition, but overall, we are happy to share. This is how lots of bootleg posters are discovered.

But another part is your biz philosophy. I refuse to sell material that I can't properly identify or which has some known issue. Sometimes I have a poster and I say to myself "what exactly is this?" and I have 50 years experience (I started selling comics in 1966! and I have posters I got in 1967). Not everyone has that ideal. Some people just have a need to pump it out like Wal Mart pumps out $5 shoes and so posters that I would not offer until I can make a definitive determination, others will create an identification and sell it. Then later when the real determination has been made, go back and change the data - creating a different history than what really happened. This is not my method. Correcting my own mistakes is not an ego-building moment.

this is why it is important to listen to other experts and actually absorb the information, whether you want to or not.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 03:04:35 PM by MoviePosterBid.com »

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Offline Charlie

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 03:37:48 PM »

So what happens when you have a bunch of different self-proclaimed "experts" all saying different things? One knows it's fake, one thinks it's questionable, one knows it's real. All are experienced. Whose opinion is valid?

I've never seen another hobby filled with more shysters, forgers, rip-off artists or just plain weirdos than this one.

That said, the best strategy is to pick someone of authority to trust and go with that person's info based on their history in the hobby. (How long have they been doing this? Is their reputation solid? Who are their references & sources? Are they quoting them publicly and offering them as points of contact for anyone questioning authenticity?)

If you go with Erik's concept, where even the slightest question causes immediate cancellation, half the stuff being sold right now would be cancelled, re-listed and adjusted according to all the "experts" out there.

Bad idea IMO.

Richard the master instigator...  I've got to go with this one here.  I don't think you pull anything. The ones you have to worry about are those that don't fully describe the posters knowing they are suspect.  I think the majority of dealer's are honest including Richie... Nobody is perfect.   

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 04:10:52 PM »
Richard the master instigator...  I've got to go with this one here.  I don't think you pull anything. The ones you have to worry about are those that don't fully describe the posters knowing they are suspect.  I think the majority of dealer's are honest including Richie... Nobody is perfect.   

lol.. I love it.. hey.. what do you say about that instigator in the Robin Hood thread on VMPF.. too funny

and you are right about one thing, nobody is perfect, no matter how much they try to paint themself so.

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Offline JCM

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2016, 04:41:07 PM »
But another part is your biz philosophy. I refuse to sell material that I can't properly identify or which has some known issue. Sometimes I have a poster and I say to myself "what exactly is this?" and I have 50 years experience (I started selling comics in 1966! and I have posters I got in 1967). Not everyone has that ideal. Some people just have a need to pump it out like Wal Mart pumps out $5 shoes and so posters that I would not offer until I can make a definitive determination, others will create an identification and sell it. Then later when the real determination has been made, go back and change the data - creating a different history than what really happened. This is not my method. Correcting my own mistakes is not an ego-building moment.

Can't argue with a solid business philosophy and it's admirable that you adhere to this. Honestly, if I were a poster dealer, I'd adopt this approach as well.

That being said, referencing the recent Star Wars quad that seemed to have everyone in a big huff last week, what else can you ask Bruce to do? He confirmed with some very reputable guys that the poster is genuine. An authority on British quads, check. An authority on Star Wars posters, check. Both well known. Plus, his own authority. So that's more authority than most of us will ever have.

Are they conspiring together? (I'm asking honestly.) Because there are a handful of guys here still saying it's a known repro. So, what are their credentials and sources? People like me read these comments and have no idea who the posters on this forum are. They appear non-credible, and look like they're just stirring up shit, honestly.

Again, I stand by my original comment: I've done baseball cards, comics, toys, guitars, home theater, and plenty of other non-related yet equally expensive and silly hobbies for 30+ years. Posters are by FAR the weirdest group. No comparison. Not even a close second. (I've never done fine art and can see how that would be the poster world times 100; no thanks!)



Offline DekeThornton

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 10:54:23 AM »

Heritage, when notified of such a discrepancy actually pulls the item down and does not let bidding proceed on mis-described items if they are notified

I am not meaning to jump into a fracas or anything, but this hasn't been true in my experience. I have notified HA of three discrepancies in the past, through the link they provide on the item pages. The errors were:

1) Spanish poster was misidentified as Mexican. In case it matters to the story, the poster ultimately sold for $1600 so it wasn't your usual piece of $5 Mexican crap (and I say this with utmost affection for Mexican posters). Since the poster was for a Mexican movie, we can presume that had it actually been Mexican as originally described it would have sold for more.
2) Movie title of a foreign poster was misidentified. In this case, the poster was stated to be for a great historically important film when it was really for a crappy "sequel" with barely any relationship to the original other than a similar name.
3) An actress features on a poster was misidentified.

Let's discount 3 since the error isn't consequential for the poster itself.

Still, only in case 1 did HA acknowledge and update the description, and it took more than one message from me. The description was finally updated the day before the auction.

In case 2, HA didn't respond to my message.

I suppose in these cases the authenticity of the items was not in question, but country of origin and film title are important things to get right in the description.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 10:55:04 AM by DekeThornton »

Offline movieposterodyssey

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Re: Should Incorrectly Described Auction Listings Be Pulled From Sale?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 09:38:39 PM »
I agree with, Jeff. Any problems and it has to be removed and double checked.