Author Topic: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?  (Read 8916 times)

Mirosae

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Gents & Ladies
 I  would welcome any thoughts on this "original art" apparently  it belonged  to another well known collector  from NYC.

The current owner reassured  me that it is the original. I have been talking to my usual suspects and So far three out of four people are very sceptical so the "nay " are winning.

To me there are substantive differences around the eyes; and the signature.

Thanks a lot in advance for your help

"Original art"


"Magazine cover"




Comparison


« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 03:58:19 PM by Mirosae »

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 05:09:46 PM »
the pastel does appear to be a Flohri

yes is the original as far as I can tell and is very nice. What are they trying to extort you for cashwise

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Offline 50s

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 06:57:32 PM »
Just looking at the signature, missing dash to left. The word Hollywood is different when comparing letter for letter. Also the inside half of the eye compares quite different to me.



« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 07:00:16 PM by 50s »

Offline BruceH

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 08:44:14 PM »
I say there is zero chance it is the original to the magazine cover, and a tiny chance it is more than a few years old.

Probably done by a starving artist type.
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Offline DekeThornton

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 12:20:48 AM »
Yeah, there are a lot of subtle but noticeable differences in shading and color.

Steve pointed out the lettering and I noticed that the white only goes partway into the first "O" in one of them, while it goes into the "L" in the other.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 12:21:27 AM by DekeThornton »

Offline DekeThornton

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2016, 12:24:38 AM »
Coincidentally, I recently made my first foray into original magazine cover art (by Ernesto Garcia Cabral). I won't hijack this thread, but will post it elsewhere once I have it in hand. Hopefully it's legit!

Offline erik1925

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2016, 12:25:55 AM »
I say there is zero chance it is the original to the magazine cover, and a tiny chance it is more than a few years old.

Probably done by a starving artist type.


+1


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Offline 50s

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 12:26:26 AM »
Steve pointed out the lettering and I noticed that the white only goes partway into the first "O" in one of them, while it goes into the "L" in the other.

Every letter in the word Hollywood is different (size/ position)


Offline erik1925

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2016, 12:43:32 AM »
Every letter in the word Hollywood is different (size/ position)



The gallery that currently has this for sale will say (and insist) that this IS the original, Flohri art, without question.

http://grapefruitmoongallery.com/9233

I inquired about this item, over 2 months ago, with detail, side by side comparative images, via a number of emails, and asked the gallery rep about the multiple, visual discrepancies on the pastel as compared to the image shown on the mag cover (variations in numerous areas of the art that didnt match, the signature being "off" & in a slightly different area, re-written etc).

Her replies were "interesting," to say the least, since she couldn't explain those variations away. And when asking $7500.00, I was hoping to be convinced. Sadly, I wasn't.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 12:55:20 AM by erik1925 »


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Offline 50s

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2016, 01:25:51 AM »




Offline erik1925

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2016, 01:31:02 AM »
Every letter in the word Hollywood is different (size/ position)



Let alone so much more, Steve.  :-\


-Jeff

Mirosae

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2016, 02:17:48 AM »





This is incredibly helpful. As you say the lettering is really different. And the colours too.

Thank you Steve

Mirosae

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 02:18:33 AM »
Coincidentally, I recently made my first foray into original magazine cover art (by Ernesto Garcia Cabral). I won't hijack this thread, but will post it elsewhere once I have it in hand. Hopefully it's legit!

Please do share!!!!

Mirosae

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 02:20:17 AM »
I say there is zero chance it is the original to the magazine cover, and a tiny chance it is more than a few years old.

Probably done by a starving artist type.

Yes, someone else had said exactly  the same. I take the nah are winning.

Thanks

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 03:57:29 AM »
Rosa, don't listen to what these non-art people are saying.

You do indeed have the original piece there and Dan over at Grapefruit Moon Gallery is top-notch.

why the painting doesn't look quite right is most likely because the pastel has been restored at some point

a little art education: for paints, pigment is ground down to a fine powder, finer than talc, and mixed with a medium. Oils for oil paint, water based solubles for water paints and a thick oil based paste for acrylics. Pastels are the pure pigment, without a medium. But because pastels are a non-fixed medium, they are fugitive. An anti-caking powder is mixed with the pigment and they are pressed into pastel sticks. But over time, the pastel flakes off or worse, it gets touched and any touch rubs away or smudges the pastels. It also happens when pastels are poorly stored and the surfaces are in contact with other surfaces, like another painting

the problem now becomes how to restore such damage and with pastels it is nearly impossible to get a correct match because nobody does it like the original artist and if you don't have a reference to look at, you also make mistakes, like leaving out the extra line in front of the artists signature which the restorer may have thought was a smudge and the restorer also probably enhanced what they did not restore, just like poster restorers adding translucent colors to boost the finished product.

that's why the piece has some areas that are spot on, and others seem a little off and why others - such as the signature - have a ghost line.

it is the original, but it is restored. You might ask Dan if he had the restoration done and mention my name and that I said you should ask him.
If Dan had it restored, he will tell you, if he did not, he might look into it. (okay.. I read above where Jeff previously asked him about it. probably comes to Dan in it's current condition)

meanwhile, here's a pastel piece from 1940 by Rolf Armstrong.. I might mention, it's on my wall, at my office and Dan has tried to buy it...

« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 04:06:13 AM by MoviePosterBid.com »

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Mirosae

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2016, 04:29:17 AM »
That looks great Rich. On both accounts  :P

Thank you all for giving  me such a good food for thought. Rich, I  hear what you are saying. I  also appreciate  others providing a different  viewpoint.

Will muddle it over...

Thank you all - very helpful.  :)

Offline 50s

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 08:13:50 AM »
Rosa, don't listen to what these non-art people are saying

I have started on an artistic journey and been taking life drawing classes the past few weeks (no joke) and feel this qualifies me as art people:

This original likely was drawn by the Chinese in a sweat shop. It is f-f-f-fake. Please be under no illusion that this is not worth your consideration.

Talk of paint, pigments, pastels, powder, pressed poorly is pure poppycock



« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 09:12:09 AM by 50s »

Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 08:51:31 AM »
You do indeed have the original piece there and Dan over at Grapefruit Moon Gallery is top-notch.

I've bought a couple of posters from Grapefruit Moon in the past, they are great. Dan is the former lead guitarist of Soul Asylum, remember those guys? 

Mirosae

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 09:02:58 AM »


I am very glad to see that this thread has  provoked such a good discussion. It is most helpful to have others' views and opinions.  It is also good to read plenty of food for thought - not just for me but for anyone out there considering a similar purchase.


This is why APF is so wonderful. Thank you  :)


Offline oldposterho

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 09:58:33 AM »
I find myself agreeing with Rich in that it's had (a lot of) restoration.  If you look at the upper right corner of the 'eye' comparison photos at the lines on the turban you can see the ghost images of the original lines of the folds underneath the overpainting.

GFM gallery is definitely first rate, but in this case the question for me would be do you want to shell out your hard earned dosh on something that has had so much work done on it, not the original vs. repro question.  

That said, it is lovely.

[Edit: upper RIGHT corner.  Need to remember that "right" is the hand with the ribbon tied to it...]
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 10:42:07 AM by oldposterho »
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Offline 110x75

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2016, 10:23:22 AM »
I've bought a poster from these guys. One of my best purchases last year. They have all kinds of good stuff for sale. Have no idea about the Valentino though...
Matias
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Offline erik1925

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2016, 12:01:13 PM »
Rosa, don't listen to what these non-art people are saying.

You do indeed have the original piece there and Dan over at Grapefruit Moon Gallery is top-notch.

why the painting doesn't look quite right is most likely because the pastel has been restored at some point

a little art education: for paints, pigment is ground down to a fine powder, finer than talc, and mixed with a medium. Oils for oil paint, water based solubles for water paints and a thick oil based paste for acrylics. Pastels are the pure pigment, without a medium. But because pastels are a non-fixed medium, they are fugitive. An anti-caking powder is mixed with the pigment and they are pressed into pastel sticks. But over time, the pastel flakes off or worse, it gets touched and any touch rubs away or smudges the pastels. It also happens when pastels are poorly stored and the surfaces are in contact with other surfaces, like another painting

the problem now becomes how to restore such damage and with pastels it is nearly impossible to get a correct match because nobody does it like the original artist and if you don't have a reference to look at, you also make mistakes, like leaving out the extra line in front of the artists signature which the restorer may have thought was a smudge and the restorer also probably enhanced what they did not restore, just like poster restorers adding translucent colors to boost the finished product.

that's why the piece has some areas that are spot on, and others seem a little off and why others - such as the signature - have a ghost line.

it is the original, but it is restored. You might ask Dan if he had the restoration done and mention my name and that I said you should ask him.
If Dan had it restored, he will tell you, if he did not, he might look into it. (okay.. I read above where Jeff previously asked him about it. probably comes to Dan in it's current condition)

meanwhile, here's a pastel piece from 1940 by Rolf Armstrong.. I might mention, it's on my wall, at my office and Dan has tried to buy it...



Good info, Rich. Back when I was emailing the gallery associate, I even asked if it had been retouched or restored. She said it hadn't been. All the other slight artistic variables, she said, were caused by things like lighting,  when it was being readied to be photographed for the mag cover (she said those created shadows were the issue). I didnt quite get that explanation, as this piece would have been evenly lit for a cover photo.

Anyhow, had she simply said that it had been heavily retouched and restored in the years since, that would have answered the question and explained away the differences in appearance. But because she didnt, it left me wondering.  The associate's emails were very nice and she thanked me for asking the questions. She also said she would investigate further but I never got any follow ups.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 12:19:58 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2016, 12:46:55 PM »
I have started on an artistic journey and been taking life drawing classes the past few weeks (no joke) and feel this qualifies me as art people:

This original likely was drawn by the Chinese in a sweat shop. It is f-f-f-fake. Please be under no illusion that this is not worth your consideration.

Talk of paint, pigments, pastels, powder, pressed poorly is pure poppycock

man can you be a dumbass sometimes
:P

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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2016, 12:50:55 PM »
All the other slight artistic variables, she said, were caused by things like lighting,  when it was being readied to be photographed for the mag cover (she said those created shadows were the issue). I didnt quite get that explanation, as this piece would have been evenly lit for a cover photo.

yeah that is kind of dumb, however, Motion Picture magazine in the 1920s didn't use the highest quality printing for the cover stock.

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Valentino original art cover- Is this the "real" thing or ....?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2016, 01:05:19 PM »
yeah that is kind of dumb, however, Motion Picture magazine in the 1920s didn't use the highest quality printing for the cover stock.

Thanks.

And in the end, and as you mentioned, it's the rather heavy retouching/restoration that also gives it the slightly different look.


-Jeff