Author Topic: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?  (Read 5956 times)

screenone

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When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« on: April 23, 2016, 03:41:11 PM »
Hello all.
I'm new to APF and this is my first post. Hope it gets you thinking.

Something that I have wondered about for some time is, "When is a Poster still considered a poster?".
Many times I have seen posters prior to being linen backed and there is maybe a little over (or under) 50% of the actual poster to work with. So, once it has been backed, it now is complete, with paper fills and in-painting and usually looks fantastic.
But surely if someone at some time were to have the poster removed from the backing, then they would still only have the half of the poster that was original and the rest would be floating around in the bath with the backing.

So, what I am wondering is this. If you start off with a few pieces of an incomplete poster then it is not going to be worth much at all, if anything, so how can the value suddenly sky rocket when in truth you still only have an incomplete poster but it has had paper added and been professionally painted, because no matter how good it looks, it's still not a complete, original poster, as the paper infills will be from a totally differant poster and the paint is not the same, nor done by the same artist.
I do believe that restoration can go to far. Sure the poster will look great but, it isn't an original poster. It didn't come originally from the printers (well, 50% of it didn't anyway). So how can it be valued in the same range as the same poster that is complete but not backed?.

Also the question is, when can you say that you have a genuine backed poster?. My thinking is that there has to be at least 80%. Maybe corners missing, paper lose to a small section and maybe paper lose around fold lines. But if a very large portion of the poster is missing then it cannot be claimed to be original once it's restored because most of it is, "fake".

When you buy a poster that has been linen backed from an on-line auction site they can never usually tell you who done the work and most can only guess at the amount of restoration that has been done, so you never really know how much of the original poster was there before work started. this is especially true with older rarer posters.
Anyway,  something for you to think about.
 ;)

Offline erik1925

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2016, 06:06:45 PM »
Some interesting questions, Jon.

My first question, based on one of yours, would be: Why would someone later on want to remove a poster that had been backed and partly re-created? (or are you meaning that someone down the road might not know it was partially re-created, during the restoration process, or would want to have it re-done later?).

I think a lot of times, that folks have partial re-creations done, too, if that partial poster is an only known copy or maybe only one of several known. Completing it, is aesthetically more pleasing than having a partial poster (or WC) with sections missing, to many collectors.

When vast % are re-created, your question about if it should be called a totally original poster, is a good one, too. Ive had only a few things backed, and that was done to stabilize and conserve the aged paper. One large piece, a French 1P had a few small areas paper loss in a couple folds, due to acid burn (the poster is from 1925). After it was backed, these 3 fold areas, the longest of which was about 3" long, were repaired. So 99%+ is original.

Im sure opinions and comments will vary. A good discussion topic, too.  thumbsup.gif


-Jeff

Offline BruceH

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2016, 06:29:52 PM »
If you took a complete poster, and cut it into 100 sections and fully "restored" all 100 of them, would you have 100 examples of that poster and what would each be worth, compared to the value of the complete poster? Judging for some prices on partial posters, it might pay to do this to some super expensive posters!
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Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2016, 07:29:47 PM »
My own personal ceiling would be around 14.75%
Of course if we're talking non-"core art" resto (e.g. borders, secondary letterring etc) I might go up to 22%

Online 50s

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 08:14:10 PM »
My own personal ceiling would be around 14.75%
Of course if we're talking non-"core art" resto (e.g. borders, secondary letterring etc) I might go up to 22%


I would largely agree with these numbers. Although I would suggest if we are talking daybills, recreations with improved graphics should add value to these posters, where the more missing, the better. It also comes down to the artist, for example half a daybill completed by Picasso would make this piece substantially worth more than nothing, whilst having me complete it, might have me charged with offensive art despite my best genuine efforts.

 


Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2016, 08:44:56 PM »
I think if you want a poster that looks nice, why not buy a nice copy rather than buy any copy & getting it restored.

have to wait? Good things come to those who wait.. remember that one.

my position is that I only buy a copy that needs backing or a backed copy is when the possibility of finding it otherwise is near to z-e-r-o
otherwise I have been actively replacing anything that I have which is already backed with a raw copy, as I believe a raw copy is 100x better

thankfully, backed paper only makes up about 1% of my collection, I don't give a damn about folds and if it has a tear or small paper loss or small tape, that displays just fine also - without getting it backed.

in other words, I am against restoration and linenbacking (or paperbacking or gel backing) as a general rule.
I'm buying paper, not linen

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Offline erik1925

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 12:44:44 PM »
I think if you want a poster that looks nice, why not buy a nice copy rather than buy any copy & getting it restored.

have to wait? Good things come to those who wait.. remember that one.

my position is that I only buy a copy that needs backing or a backed copy is when the possibility of finding it otherwise is near to z-e-r-o
otherwise I have been actively replacing anything that I have which is already backed with a raw copy, as I believe a raw copy is 100x better

thankfully, backed paper only makes up about 1% of my collection, I don't give a damn about folds and if it has a tear or small paper loss or small tape, that displays just fine also - without getting it backed.

in other words, I am against restoration and linenbacking (or paperbacking or gel backing) as a general rule.
I'm buying paper, not linen

This is what i have thought about, too, Rich, when deciding about backing anything (regardless of Jon's initial question, too, about what percentage replaced no longer makes a poster a genuine poster).

I have a couple things now that I may have restored with some re-creation needed, too. And I may because of the comment you made--that these rarely if ever come up on the market. In that case, the option to have it expertly restored and made whole makes more sense, but Jon's points also make sense in that 21st century materials and artistry are literally being "added to" items that come the first third of the last century.

That thought is what also has made me hold off; what I do have is still 100% original at this point.


-Jeff

screenone

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 08:47:19 PM »
Some interesting questions, Jon.

My first question, based on one of yours, would be: Why would someone later on want to remove a poster that had been backed and partly re-created? (or are you meaning that someone down the road might not know it was partially re-created, during the restoration process, or would want to have it re-done later?).

I think a lot of times, that folks have partial re-creations done, too, if that partial poster is an only known copy or maybe only one of several known. Completing it, is aesthetically more pleasing than having a partial poster (or WC) with sections missing, to many collectors.

When vast % are re-created, your question about if it should be called a totally original poster, is a good one, too. Ive had only a few things backed, and that was done to stabilize and conserve the aged paper. One large piece, a French 1P had a few small areas paper loss in a couple folds, due to acid burn (the poster is from 1925). After it was backed, these 3 fold areas, the longest of which was about 3" long, were repaired. So 99%+ is original.

Im sure opinions and comments will vary. A good discussion topic, too.  thumbsup.gif

I have some linen backed posters and they all show fold lines and very minor flaws but, I know the poster is 100% original from when it came out. I am very similar, as to what I would have done, as to what you had done to your French 1p because that is just minor restoration.

 Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against posters that have had lots of restoration work, but I do have a problem when the prices for these go through the roof, I mean, what are you actually buying?, how much of it is still original, both paper and paint. Unless you were there at the restorers you can really only guess as to what your getting.
For example. Lets say that you have got the bottom 10" of a 1931 Frankenstein poster, roughly a quarter and nothing else. So this means that you will be getting 31" of paper infill and then the paint. Now when you get it back you can't tell the differance between yours and another that was complete before backing.
Now the original poster will be worth in the region of $15-20,000, but what is the truthful value of the 1/4 original and 3/4 fake poster that you now have??
I would be very interested in your answers to the above

Offline erik1925

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 09:20:06 PM »
I have some linen backed posters and they all show fold lines and very minor flaws but, I know the poster is 100% original from when it came out. I am very similar, as to what I would have done, as to what you had done to your French 1p because that is just minor restoration.

 Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against posters that have had lots of restoration work, but I do have a problem when the prices for these go through the roof, I mean, what are you actually buying?, how much of it is still original, both paper and paint. Unless you were there at the restorers you can really only guess as to what your getting.
For example. Lets say that you have got the bottom 10" of a 1931 Frankenstein poster, roughly a quarter and nothing else. So this means that you will be getting 31" of paper infill and then the paint. Now when you get it back you can't tell the differance between yours and another that was complete before backing.
Now the original poster will be worth in the region of $15-20,000, but what is the truthful value of the 1/4 original and 3/4 fake poster that you now have??
I would be very interested in your answers to the above

First question I would ask, is where you would find an original release Frankenstein OS poster for $15-20K?   prayer.gif

The poster collecting world would LOVE you for that info!  thumbsup.gif

This copy sold, back in 2004, for $189,750.00

http://movieposters.ha.com/itm/horror/frankenstein-universal-1931-/a/601-16175.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Unless you are meaning a later RR like this?

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/12314055.html


Maybe the re-created 1931 poster might sell for the $15-20K figure? No real idea, tho.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:49:46 PM by erik1925 »


-Jeff

screenone

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 09:27:54 PM »
First question I would ask, is where you would find an original release Frankenstein OS poster for $15-20K?

The poster collecting world would LOVE you for that info!  thumbsup.gif

This copy sold, back in 2004, for $189,750.00

http://movieposters.ha.com/itm/horror/frankenstein-universal-1931-/a/601-16175.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Unless you are meaning a later RR like this?

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/12314055.html


Maybe the re-created poster might sell for the $15-20K figure? No real idea, tho.

Yes, sorry. I was looking at the RR, but even so?

Offline erik1925

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 09:37:34 PM »
But your point about not knowing what you are getting, more so if you are not the one who had the poster backed and were very specific on what was being done to the poster, is what makes some leery about buying posters that are offered already mounted to linen.

Sometimes, it's only when that poster is bought and in hand, that the full amount of restoration, airbrushing, retouching, fills etc is seen.

And that is also why, in addition to full disclosure on what has been done to pre-backed posters offered for sale seems so important, but also knowing who did the work. Those names are usually Never disclosed and I dont understand why that is kept such a mystery.

If someone gets restoration work done on a car, then later sells it, as a restored vehicle, most buyers are likely to ask who did the work. That info would be likely revealed, either verbally, or in the paperwork that could also be turned over to the new owner, as a matter of record keeping.

Why not the same for posters? (If the restorer is known, of course).




-Jeff

Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 11:01:10 PM »
I've posted before about the difference between poster collectors and the person who would spend $358,750 on a poster (e.g the Frankie 3 sheet recently at HA)
I think, the person who would spend $358,750 on a poster does not give a shit about posters, or well, maybe a small amount of shit. Maybe at one time, the person WAS a true poster fan, but that person is now long gone. Generally speaking, they are insanely rich, buying rare, high-end art/antiques all the time, particularly those no one else will ever have. They scour the auction houses for "signature" events, get aroused by the hype and swoop-in. For this reason, that person doesn't care the poster was actually only 21%, 33% or 65% of a poster before the restoration. 

These are the folks that are targeted by high-end auction houses. You can't market a piece of crumpled up dirty paper. This wont attract enough of them. You need to create an aura about it. Wash it, back it, feature it...and they will come.

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 12:15:01 AM »
I think you'll find very few wealthy people view money the way you *think* they do :)

Offline DekeThornton

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 12:32:41 AM »
If you took a complete poster, and cut it into 100 sections and fully "restored" all 100 of them, would you have 100 examples of that poster and what would each be worth, compared to the value of the complete poster? Judging for some prices on partial posters, it might pay to do this to some super expensive posters!

Are y'all familiar with the "Ship of Theseus" thought experiment?
wiki link here

These questions have been pondered by some of the great minds of history. If only movie posters were around in Ancient Greece so the philosophers could have given their opinion on how the thought experiment applies in the context of posters.

Offline erik1925

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 12:39:15 AM »
I've posted before about the difference between poster collectors and the person who would spend $358,750 on a poster (e.g the Frankie 3 sheet recently at HA)
I think, the person who would spend $358,750 on a poster does not give a shit about posters, or well, maybe a small amount of shit. Maybe at one time, the person WAS a true poster fan, but that person is now long gone. Generally speaking, they are insanely rich, buying rare, high-end art/antiques all the time, particularly those no one else will ever have. They scour the auction houses for "signature" events, get aroused by the hype and swoop-in. For this reason, that person doesn't care the poster was actually only 21%, 33% or 65% of a poster before the restoration. 

These are the folks that are targeted by high-end auction houses. You can't market a piece of crumpled up dirty paper. This wont attract enough of them. You need to create an aura about it. Wash it, back it, feature it...and they will come.


I politely disagree with you on this point, Vick. People who pay big bucks for the finest, expect the finest, regardless of condition, in many cases (imho).

Note to self: Robust discussion and debate to follow.  :D

Sometimes the most fragile, "dirty" or "unwashed" item (whatever it is, not just a poster), left in its discovered, original state, can bring in the most coin.

This is what people want, in many cases. Items (of all kinds) un-restored, not tampered with, and as last seen before found or re-discovered, once again.


-Jeff

Offline Simes

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2016, 04:00:11 AM »
Hello all.
I'm new to APF and this is my first post. Hope it gets you thinking.

Something that I have wondered about for some time is, "When is a Poster still considered a poster?".
Many times I have seen posters prior to being linen backed and there is maybe a little over (or under) 50% of the actual poster to work with. So, once it has been backed, it now is complete, with paper fills and in-painting and usually looks fantastic.
But surely if someone at some time were to have the poster removed from the backing, then they would still only have the half of the poster that was original and the rest would be floating around in the bath with the backing.

So, what I am wondering is this. If you start off with a few pieces of an incomplete poster then it is not going to be worth much at all, if anything, so how can the value suddenly sky rocket when in truth you still only have an incomplete poster but it has had paper added and been professionally painted, because no matter how good it looks, it's still not a complete, original poster, as the paper infills will be from a totally differant poster and the paint is not the same, nor done by the same artist.
I do believe that restoration can go to far. Sure the poster will look great but, it isn't an original poster. It didn't come originally from the printers (well, 50% of it didn't anyway). So how can it be valued in the same range as the same poster that is complete but not backed?.

Also the question is, when can you say that you have a genuine backed poster?. My thinking is that there has to be at least 80%. Maybe corners missing, paper lose to a small section and maybe paper lose around fold lines. But if a very large portion of the poster is missing then it cannot be claimed to be original once it's restored because most of it is, "fake".

When you buy a poster that has been linen backed from an on-line auction site they can never usually tell you who done the work and most can only guess at the amount of restoration that has been done, so you never really know how much of the original poster was there before work started. this is especially true with older rarer posters.
Anyway,  something for you to think about.
 ;)

I think I was asking the exact same thing when a 'restored' Thunderball poster turned up for auction.  It was owned by Original Poster who couldn't shift it via their site but had luck via Saleroom. 

This poster had Only the art portion remaining which for some reason, had had the titling and credits removed.  So, this was applied to some linen, archival paper was glued in sections around the art, and all the writing added.

Really, what was the point, one might ask?  But I think someone did pay four figures for it.

Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 08:46:34 AM »
I think you'll find very few wealthy people view money the way you *think* they do :)
Fair enough, but those "very few" are the ones I am talking about really.  Why would auction houses bother to "restore" those signature pieces if it wasn't to capitalize on elite high-end bidding brought together by attractive jpegs and an advertising strategy?  Seems we're all saying original paper finds might yield as much to true collectors, but every time they find one of these they restore the poster and the price goes through the roof.  Why is that? 

Offline AjTheGreat

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Re: When is a Poster not a Poster, before it's linen backed ?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 02:18:15 PM »
First question I would ask, is where you would find an original release Frankenstein OS poster for $15-20K?   prayer.gif

Unless you are meaning a later RR like this?

http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/archiveitem/12314055.html


Maybe the re-created 1931 poster might sell for the $15-20K figure? No real idea, tho.

Random question to this, could it be an original but they only say RR because there is no way to prove its an original? Is that typically the way it works?