Author Topic: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?  (Read 23524 times)

Offline erik1925

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Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« on: December 05, 2015, 01:03:33 PM »
Why do auction houses / dealers who are auctioning posters that have been restored, repaired, linen or paper backed etc never mention the name of the restorer who did the work, especially if that dealer or auction house was the one who sent it off to be worked on (in the descriptions)?

In the descriptions, it is always written something like "...a talented restorer addressed the issues, touched up the fold lines and it now is presentable...."

If something has had work done to it, and it is being offered for auction, isnt knowing who did the work an important part of that poster's history? I think so, especially if a winning bidder has additional questions about said work, once the piece is in the new owner's hands.

And yes, all sellers receive items that have been backed prior to being consigned, so I'm not meaning those kinds of items, since, sometimes, the consignor may have bought that piece, already having been worked on, and doesnt know who performed the restoration, either.


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Offline Neo

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 01:32:52 PM »
I agree, that when possible, such details should be included.  If someone sends proof with their consignment, regarding who did the work, or if the auction house sent the work off, the item's description should include that info., IMO.  It would also be good to have before/after photos, showing what work was done, etc.

Different people have different methods, and results are sometimes significantly different.  Of course, some folks would pay more for something that was restored by a specific company, and some folks would pay less, or not even bid on something that was restored by a specific company.

I'm sure there are buyers who are skeptical to purchase something that has already been backed, as it could be like buying a wrecked car, that had shoddy work done to it from an infamous shop, and/or possibly "smoke and mirrors" to conceal some things.

Also, as you said, with the history of the piece.  It's always nice to know as much as possible about something, especially when buying it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:02:57 PM by Neo »

Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 02:18:07 PM »
I just think it's as important as giving a pre- and post- restore description. Especially when an auction may contain a lot (or majority) of backed pieces.

To me, there is no reason this information need be kept secret, regardless of who that restorer is who did the work.  :)


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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 10:39:49 PM »
the one time I sent a valuable poster out for restoration prior to selling, I noted that Mario Cueva had done it.
But unless I sent it out to get done, it's not possible for me to include such info

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 11:20:40 PM »
the one time I sent a valuable poster out for restoration prior to selling, I noted that Mario Cueva had done it.
But unless I sent it out to get done, it's not possible for me to include such info

I recall it well, Rich... the HS for The Searchers, right?

And the before and after pix showed a wonderful transformation of that piece.

Does it not make sense to you, too, if a seller/dealer/auctioneer knows who did the work on a piece they are offering (let alone sent it out themsleves), that that bit of info should be included in the item's description, rather than just mentioning "an (unnamed) restorer dealt with a poster's various issues and it now looks wonderful?"

I wish it was the common practice, on any and all items.. rarer/pricier or not.



« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 12:17:24 AM by erik1925 »


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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 12:14:40 AM »
sure it would make sense, but here was the issue in comics:

I think a document should be attached to the piece (not ATTACHED of course) explaining what was done & processes used.
Most restorers are against this as it reveals their trade and they don't want to create competitors

Personally, I think backing etc is for "restoration purposes only to severely damaged posters"
anything else to me is 'poster abuse'.
so what it has a tear or a few. so what it has 'folds'..
think of the poster like a woman, if she has a few creases, are you going to tell her about it?

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 12:26:05 AM »
Thanks again, Rich.

Makes sense.. even if, as you said, a certificate or small document is/was included with a restored piece, stating what and, importantly, WHO did the work.

To me, there's no reason a winning bidder should have to contact a seller/dealer/auctioneer after the fact (if one wants to know this info, and who the restoration person was).


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Offline 50s

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015, 02:03:18 AM »
think of the poster like a woman, if she has a few creases, are you going to tell her about it?

I don't talk to my posters, I am not completely crazy yet... And, I am only in the market for spring chickens






Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015, 02:10:33 AM »
I don't talk to my posters, I am not completely crazy yet.

you don't know what you're missing

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Offline Ari

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2015, 03:20:31 AM »
I don't talk to my posters, but they never shut up.
An Error Has Occurred!
You can't report your own post to the moderator, that doesn't make sense!

Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2016, 08:36:54 PM »
 bump.gif

An answer to this question never materialized the first time, so I'm trying again. 



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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2016, 08:55:03 PM »
bump.gif

An answer to this question never materialized the first time, so I'm trying again. 

last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work

of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.

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Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2016, 09:00:29 PM »
last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work

of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.


Right, and I recall that you mentioned Mario's name at that time; that's why I qualified those situations in my first question. And

But often, dealers know the intricate details of a poster's pre-retore condition as well as the details of what was done to a piece, post-restore. So if all that can be explained, to a degree, then certainly if a dealer/auctioneer sent the piece out to have the work done, the restorer, whose work has been described, should be named, too.

It shouldnt be a mystery, yet it seems to be. Why is the restorer's ID kept in the shadows?

BTW, Mario did an amazing job on that HS, Rich!   notworthy.gif

« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 12:42:35 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2016, 09:16:49 PM »
I see at the major auction houses (like a certain one going on now...) about two dozen foreign men and women working under fluorescent lights in a basement somewhere with masks over their faces over giant tables with rollers and chemicals and unprimed rolls of canvas behind them, etc.  They're being watched by a few real experts, and while they've been doing this for a while, they don't get to work on the really exclusive pieces, its more about quantity. 

This is a distorted version of reality, but not that distorted I believe. 

Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2016, 09:20:40 PM »
It sounds like a poster sweat shop. rofl1

Makes for an interesting, (albeit fictional) scenario.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 09:23:58 PM by erik1925 »


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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2016, 09:28:31 PM »
I see at the major auction houses (like a certain one going on now...) about two dozen foreign men and women working under fluorescent lights in a basement somewhere with masks over their faces over giant tables with rollers and chemicals and unprimed rolls of canvas behind them, etc.  They're being watched by a few real experts, and while they've been doing this for a while, they don't get to work on the really exclusive pieces, its more about quantity. 

This is a distorted version of reality, but not that distorted I believe. 

there are 3 places where I understand this happens - China, India and Mississippi and all the 'restorers' are 7-12 year old children.

sometimes these posters turn up at Posterfix

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2016, 06:03:38 AM »
last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work

of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.

It was worth restoring Rich. Searchers is a splendid film. While the HS might not be as visually elegant  as the US OS it is the only format that honours Ford's landscape and cinematography. The only one where  you can see the horizon and skyline  without any lettering.

Splendid.

Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2016, 12:25:42 PM »
there are 3 places where I understand this happens - China, India and Mississippi and all the 'restorers' are 7-12 year old children.

sometimes these posters turn up at Posterfix


As his videos clearly show.  Doh.gif

But even then, at least we know that it is someone named Chris Cloutier that is doing the so-called restoration work. So if he and his kind of work can be identified, why not the others who do incredible work?


« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 12:44:16 PM by erik1925 »


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Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2016, 08:12:58 PM »
this is a bit of my point.  How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario?  I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters. 

And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past...  for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\

Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2016, 08:23:16 PM »
this is a bit of my point.  How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario?  I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters. 

And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past...  for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\

I would be willing to bet that many high bidding collectors look at, and scrutinize these details with mucho interest. If that wasnt the case, why provide super size images at all? And ESPECIALLY when considering dropping thousands of dollars on a piece that may have had considerable retouching or restoration work.

And when the work is done beautifully and expertly, why not tout the artist by name and the talent that went into doing the work?


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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2016, 08:32:04 PM »
this is a bit of my point.  How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario?  I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters. 

And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past...  for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\

badly restored items don't make it into Heritage Signature auctions and in HA's case, they mention all the restoration, to my knowledge.

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2016, 08:44:32 PM »
badly restored items don't make it into Heritage Signature auctions and in HA's case, they mention all the restoration, to my knowledge.

True. And who was the restorer (if you ask).

Offline Crazy Vick

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2016, 08:48:38 PM »
It does matter I'm not saying it doesn't and yes I agree re full disclosure jeff. But on a resto scale of 1 to 10 what would make the cut for HA?  7/10?  So yes "badly restored" doesn't get auctioned, but how hard is it to hit that 7/10 mark and get in?  Would Cloutier get in?  Probably.  For all I know HA keeps biddingon the posterfix "ten linenbacked one sheets" auctions on ebay...and wins everytime.

Besides bruce has the highest resolution images moreso than HA I believe and even his are 2 dimension only and to get a sense of what a restored "tear" looks like and whether its a 8 or a 6 on 10, you'd be hard pressed so distinguish that from an image..  


Offline erik1925

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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2016, 09:09:22 PM »
It does matter I'm not saying it doesn't and yes I agree re full disclosure jeff. But on a resto scale of 1 to 10 what would make the cut for HA?  7/10?  So yes "badly restored" doesn't get auctioned, but how hard is it to hit that 7/10 mark and get in?  Would Cloutier get in?  Probably.  For all I know HA keeps bidding on the posterfix "ten linenbacked one sheets" auctions on ebay...and wins everytime.

Besides bruce has the highest resolution images moreso than HA I believe and even his are 2 dimension only and to get a sense of what a restored "tear" looks like and whether its a 8 or a 6 on 10, you'd be hard pressed so distinguish that from an image..  



I would think, in general, that Chris Cloutier's posters would likely Never pass muster at HA or EMP.  But there are exceptions to every rule.

And HA works with a restorer on its pieces for the Sig auctions if the posters need work, so I doubt that they are going for the Posterfix "ebay specials." And its likely that EMP avoids his 10-back specials, too. 

As far as pics go...both have great large digital images, that can be zoomed in on very well so that any and all flaws, details etc can be seen. EMP disables the super size ability some time after auctions end, whereas HA's database images are always able to be looked at in that X-large format, be it now or with images from years ago.







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Re: Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2016, 09:14:29 PM »
I would think, in general, that Chris Cloutier's posters would likely Never pass muster at HA or EMP.  But there are exceptions to every rule.

And HA works with a restorer on its pieces for the Sig auctions if the posters need work, so I doubt that they are going for the Posterfix "ebay specials." And its likely that EMP avoids his 10-back specials, too. 

As far as pics go...both have great large digital images, that can be zoomed in on very well so that any and all flaws, details etc can be seen. EMP disables the super size ability some time after auctions end, whereas HA's database images are always able to be looked at in that X-large format, be it now or with images from years ago.



I did see an eBay listing once where the seller touted that the poster had been restored by Chris Cloutier of Posterfix.  I definitely did not bid on that one.