All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Framing & Storage => Topic started by: skyjackers on August 11, 2015, 03:35:20 PM
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I'm having some work done to a couple of poster already mounted on board. I intend to get them framed as part of the process.
The guy doing the work, who obviously has far more experience than me, is recommending glass. I thought it was acrylic that most people went for these days because of it's UV filtering properties so that's what I suggested.
I wondered what the popular consensus was?
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You can use glass but you have to be careful. There is museum grade glass which is very expensive. The benefits of plexi are that it is lighter (weight wise), cheaper, does not retain heat and provides UV filtering if you pay for it.
All-in-all I believe plexi is the way to go for standard framing situations...
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Yes, UV rated plexi is the way to go. Glass retains much more heat, which is not good for posters (and moisture, if the surroundings are more humid), and is much heavier.
There are other threads on APF, where many knowledgeable members, including long time dealers and sellers, also have recommended plexi over glass. thumbup
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...and when the frame falls off the wall, gets hit by the kid's baseball, etc, acrylic doesn't shatter and cut the poster.
Been there.
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A genuine thanks for all the good advice. It's all echoing what I originally thought from reading past posts on here and doing a little research. I just don't understand why my restorer/framer is telling me that glass is far superior and the right choice for those who care about these things. I think I'm going to have to insist on Acrylic from now on.
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So we've agreed on Acrylic at last. My next question is that I have a choice of 2mm or 3mm. Apart from the price, does anyone know how important that extra mm might be? I was thinking of going with 3 but I'm not sure why.
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So we've agreed on Acrylic at last. My next question is that I have a choice of 2mm or 3mm. Apart from the price, does anyone know how important that extra mm might be? I was thinking of going with 3 but I'm not sure why.
That is less important IMO. The 3 mm will be stronger and will not flex as much. You would probably be able to see the 2 mm flex in a slight breeze or when a door is opened.
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These posters are concept posters so they are mounted on fairly sturdy hardboard already. I wonder if that would mean that from a strength perspective 2mm would be fine? There isn't a huge price difference but of course it all adds up.
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I don't know how important conservation/UV filtering is to you but I posted some pics of the plexi I use. It is much thicker than what you are describing = sounds like what is being offered is closer to Spotlight Displays overlays that are thin enough to be rolled?
http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,7794.0.html
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My mistake - the overlays I use are 3/32 inches or 2.3813 mm thick :D
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Thanks, I was wondering when I looked at your other post. I'm in the UK and haven't been able yo find the brand you are using. How do you find the anti-glare qualities? I'm not sure if I'd like to keep a few reflections.
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...and when the frame falls off the wall, gets hit by the kid's baseball, etc, acrylic doesn't shatter and cut the poster.
Been there.
And there it is...
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...and when the frame falls off the wall, gets hit by the kid's baseball, etc, acrylic doesn't shatter and cut the poster.
Been there.
Yessir.
Shard damage to a fallen poster frame would make one crying and howl, especially knowing it could have been avoided (were a frame to fall from the wall), had good quality UV plexi been used instead.
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(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p501/PaulWaines/hunchback%20of%20notre%20dame%20poster%20broken%20on%20delivery%2010_zpscc4ho9ed.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/PaulWaines/media/hunchback%20of%20notre%20dame%20poster%20broken%20on%20delivery%2010_zpscc4ho9ed.jpg.html)
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One picture speaks a thousand words.
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One picture speaks a thousand words.
Especially knowing the poster!
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WoW Paul...thats awful :-\ what kind of glass was it? Is that laminated glass? Mine are in museum glass which is also laminated, meant to keep it all together in case it shutters or breaks. And anti-fire too...but never dropped one on the floor to try it :-\
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Glass retains much more heat
this is the biggest issue. Glass transfers heat to the paper and you lose moisture thereby turning the poster into a brittle mess. My 1952R Kong 1sh was framed under glass for 25 years. when I removed it it was brittle and had to be linenbacked.
use plexi
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this is the biggest issue. Glass transfers heat to the paper and you lose moisture thereby turning the poster into a brittle mess. My 1952R Kong 1sh was framed under glass for 25 years. when I removed it it was brittle and had to be linenbacked.
use plexi
Rich, thank you for sharing this. My understanding is that both glass and plexi have come a long way in the last 10 years. No idea how yours was framed. I assume it was using the best framing techniques available 25 years ago. Heat & humidity are issues that should be addressed by the framer, using sealing techniques to help isolate conditions within the frame from those outside, whatever those might be. As you know that's what you get with conservation frame these days, using all sort of new advanced products.
But ultimately to me it all is about a personal choice, as much as it is about the quality of the materials and frame (and costs). Each of mine have been framed differently. I only go museum glass by a qualifed conservation framer with my most beloved posters. Others, larger posters went acrylic. So I guess I have the best of both worlds ;)
:D
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this is the biggest issue. Glass transfers heat to the paper and you lose moisture thereby turning the poster into a brittle mess. My 1952R Kong 1sh was framed under glass for 25 years. when I removed it it was brittle and had to be linenbacked.
use plexi
Once again, great info, Rich. Thanks again for reiterating this information.
thumbsup.gif
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Once again, great info, Rich. Thanks again for reiterating this information.
thumbsup.gif
you bet.. I don't need people to suffer like I did.
welcome1
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you bet.. I don't need people to suffer like I did.
welcome1
clap clap clap clap clap
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I second that. Thanks for all the really useful info guys.
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I have a nice poster of Monte Hellman's COCKFIGHTER that I had framed in glass 15 years ago. It slipped while I was holding it and barely hit the ground and the corner shattered. I told myself I would never use glass again. It's also amazing how much less acrylic weighs.
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Especially knowing the poster!
Does the name Quasimodo ring a bell?
wynk
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WoW Paul...thats awful :-\ what kind of glass was it? Is that laminated glass? Mine are in museum glass which is also laminated, meant to keep it all together in case it shutters or breaks. And anti-fire too...but never dropped one on the floor to try it :-\
Not Laminated Rosa, just plain glass, but even Laminated can have shards come off...
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Thanks Paul.Very helpful
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You should see the poster restored - shame the glass could not be salvaged (or the seller's IQ) ;)
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Does the name Quasimodo ring a bell?
wynk
;D ;D
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From Sue Heim's website. She's yet another who truly knows her stuff and what she is talking about. thumbup
(https://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=protect_investment)
"The most important components of the frame job is what's in front of your piece and what is behind your piece.
Let's begin with what's in front. First off, glass is a no-no! First of all, it can break, and if that happens, often your item is scratched, torn or ruined. Glass is also a heat conductor and accelerates fading and decay. Glass has one other very negative aspect and that is moisture entrapment. Framers often recommend spacers, but then do not dissuade customers from using glass. Also, even if you use spacers, movie posters are so large that they often touch the glass anyway nearer the center, thus defeating the purpose.
Framers often recommend conservation glass that typically has UV filtering but it is still a heat conductor that accelerates yellowing and brittleing. You can also get moisture entrapment and there is still a possibility of breakage, even with conservation glass, especially with these larger sizes. Glass, of any kind, is extremely heavy for any oversize piece. Conservation glass is also extremely expensive since it is very much a specialty product. When glass breaks it can shatter or just have a clean break in half. Either way, the likelihood is high of moderate to severe damage to your poster. Often times with such a large piece of glass breaking, the top half of the glass will slide behind the bottom half and scrape the face of the poster making it extremely difficult to repair. Thus, plexiglass is the recommended covering for your movie posters and valuable paper.
I have had customers tell me they don't like the look of plexiglass: it scratches, turns yellow, gets an opaque film over time. This is not high grade plexiglass! Just as some people call all tissues, Kleenex, many people call all plastics, plexiglass, and it is not. There is Lucite, styrene, low grade acrylics and many other forms of plastic sheeting, most of which have no archival qualities and least of all have no UV filtering which is the most important component of plexiglass for movie poster and paper preservation purposes. Plexiglass also does not absorb dirt and grime from the air since typically it has been polished with an antistatic cream before it is installed in the frame. Actually, when polished, plexiglass will repel dirt and dust and very rarely even needs cleaning or repolishing.
Just an added note, if you currently have something framed in your home in plexiglass or any form of plastic, never use any ammonia based cleaner on it as the chemical reaction with the plastic is what causes clouding. One of the other complaints I hear about plexiglass is that it warps and gives the poster a distorted look. Again, this is typical of the lower grades of plastics that are very thin and don't lie flat in the frame. A good piece of plexiglass should be the same thickness as glass, about one eighth of an inch thick.
One other note regarding the differences between glass and plexiglass that definitely is not crucial to the preservation of the poster is that glass has a green tint to it and a good grade of plexiglass is crystal clear. Lower grades of plastics have been made with inferior materials. Remember, the most important element of framing anything you want to preserve, is that it be framed in an acid-free environment. Plexiglass with extremely high levels of UV protection, in my experience, often has a yellow tint to it and this type of plexiglass would be used on extremely valuable items and perhaps items that are hung near high exposure areas. Plexiglass is available in clear and non-glare.
For many years I've had customers who have preferred a non-glare covering for their artwork. While non-glare glass is available there are inherent problems with this product. By nature of its design, when non-glare glass is placed over the artwork, it has a tendency to dissipate color and take the art slightly out of focus, especially if you are using a mat over your artwork. Most importantly however, it is glass, and still has ALL THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF GLASS.
A few years back, non-glare plexiglass became available which is as near true-view perfect as you can get, while still maintaining the high quality of UV. I immediately switched all of my posters that hung in highly lit areas to this non-glare plexiglass product and have been thrilled with the look ever since. Whichever type of plexiglass you choose, clear or non-glare, as long as you select high quality material with UV filtering, you will be helping to preserve the integrity of your own collectibles."
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Rich got the "brittle" treatment. In high humid areas moisture and sticking to the glass will be the result. ;)
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From Sue Heim's website. She's yet another who truly knows her stuff and what she is talking about. thumbup
(https://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=protect_investment)
Framers often recommend spacers, but then do not dissuade customers from using glass. Also, even if you use spacers, movie posters are so large that they often touch the glass anyway nearer the center, thus defeating the purpose.
I completely disagree.
If you're not using spacers and mats in your frame and have the poster right up against anything (including plexi) you're asking for REAL trouble. Ask any legitimate curator or scientist. It also makes common sense; why would you ever have something valuable stuck against a clear surface? Your poster and the colors on it will either come off OR stick to what it's pressed up against. The poster will also ripple over time without spacers. All of this can happen rather quickly.
I use Museum grade UV conservation glass and wooden frames only. LED lights only (no florescent). The humidity always stays been 35-50% at 70 +/- F. NO WIRES, never ONLY D-Rings. My posters are BOLTED on the wall using D-rings. It would take a magnitude 9+ earthquake to knock them off.
I know a lot of these cheap frames come with wires, no D-rings, no spacers or bad UV-filtering. A lot of this stuff is manufactured in overseas with hardly any thought or care put into it.
The article states "movie posters are so large that they often touch the glass anyway nearer the center, thus defeating the purpose". The reason this happens is because you are using a cheap metal frame that bows with a metal wire hanging behind it. This won't happen if you're using a solid custom made wooden frame (20 plus lbs), L-corners, spacers and several mats to hold the poster down.
A proper frame job for a 1sheet can run upwards of $800 plus (if done right). Some of the greatest posters in the world are behind museum glass under these same storage conditions. If you're having issues with brittleness you've got major humidity/temperature issues.
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Well, if you have the money for framing and the ability to control the weather conditions where the collection resides, then glass shouldn't be a problem.
Unfortunately, most collectors don't have that luxury. ;)
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Well, if you have the money for framing and the ability to control the weather conditions where the collection resides, then glass shouldn't be a problem.
Unfortunately, most collectors don't have that luxury. ;)
And I think that's why Sue, Rich (and galleries I have dealt with for non-poster works on paper) have always recommended high end UV plexi over glass, due to those factors that can't be as easily controlled by the avg person (heat and humidity), vs. a museum or other type locations where there can be strict controls in place.
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Even if you lived in a simulated museum, you wouldn't want kids in there near the glass like doing hand stands, playing ball, swinging the cat, pushing and shoving. Congrats if you live in a museum like environment
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Exactly.. the glass breakage factor... that could damage both kids and paper, if broken. In college, I had a print that I bought, that was already framed with glass. During a small earthquake, it fell from the wall and a glass shard scratched and cut into the print. Doh.gif
Lesson learned.
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Congrats if you live in a museum like environment
laugh1
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Even if you lived in a simulated museum, you wouldn't want kids in there near the glass like doing hand stands, playing ball, swinging the cat, pushing and shoving. Congrats if you live in a museum like environment
Who said anything about kids?
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I completely disagree.
If you're not using spacers and mats in your frame and have the poster right up against anything (including plexi) you're asking for REAL trouble. Ask any legitimate curator or scientist. It also makes common sense; why would you ever have something valuable stuck against a clear surface? Your poster and the colors on it will either come off OR stick to what it's pressed up against. The poster will also ripple over time without spacers. All of this can happen rather quickly.
I use Museum grade UV conservation glass and wooden frames only. LED lights only (no florescent). The humidity always stays been 35-50% at 70 +/- F. NO WIRES, never ONLY D-Rings. My posters are BOLTED on the wall using D-rings. It would take a magnitude 9+ earthquake to knock them off.
I know a lot of these cheap frames come with wires, no D-rings, no spacers or bad UV-filtering. A lot of this stuff is manufactured in overseas with hardly any thought or care put into it.
The article states "movie posters are so large that they often touch the glass anyway nearer the center, thus defeating the purpose". The reason this happens is because you are using a cheap metal frame that bows with a metal wire hanging behind it. This won't happen if you're using a solid custom made wooden frame (20 plus lbs), L-corners, spacers and several mats to hold the poster down.
A proper frame job for a 1sheet can run upwards of $800 plus (if done right). Some of the greatest posters in the world are behind museum glass under these same storage conditions. If you're having issues with brittleness you've got major humidity/temperature issues.
I see what you mean about having spacers, or mats, between the piece in the frame and the glass or acrylic. The part about the piece sticking to the glass or acrylic, applies more to something like a painting, than a poster, but under the right conditions, a poster certainly could bond to the glass or acrylic.
Correct, the wire that is on the back of many frames will cause the frame to bow, which causes issues. Do you have a photo of the D-rings setup?
As a member of the Frame Price Police, I must say that the price you mentioned for a one sheet frame - "upwards of $800 plus (if done right)" - is not entirely accurate. That may be what some framers charge, however the materials themselves, when purchased from any number of retail outlets, would be a small fraction of that. The museum grade materials (acid-free foamcore backing and mats, museum-grade UV acrylic/glass - such as Acrylite OP3, and the frame hardware), could be purchased for around $100. The greatest variance in the cost would be for the style frame molding.
All in all, good food for thought.
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I see what you mean about having spacers, or mats, between the piece in the frame and the glass or acrylic. The part about the piece sticking to the glass or acrylic, applies more to something like a painting, than a poster, but under the right conditions, a poster certainly could bond to the glass or acrylic.
Correct, the wire that is on the back of many frames will cause the frame to bow, which causes issues. Do you have a photo of the D-rings setup?
As a member of the Frame Price Police, I must say that the price you mentioned for a one sheet frame - "upwards of $800 plus (if done right)" - is not entirely accurate. That may be what some framers charge, however the materials themselves, when purchased from any number of retail outlets, would be a small fraction of that. The museum grade materials (acid-free foamcore backing and mats, museum-grade UV acrylic/glass - such as Acrylite OP3, and the frame hardware), could be purchased for around $100. The greatest variance in the cost would be for the style frame molding.
All in all, good food for thought.
D-rings, you can just google them plenty of pictures there, are mounted on both sides of the frame; then you use hangers that go into the wall and the D-rings hook onto them. You get no stress or pulling on the frame this way. Of course you have to use a wooden frame to mount them.
I just can't stress enough how important it is to never have the poster or artwork directly pressed up against anything; particularly plexi. I don't care who's selling what. Plexi isn't even acid free; it's a polymer that a lot of degradating ingredients go into making including gasoline.
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I Googled "D-ring hangers" right after posting, and realized that I had the same on my frames. :P They are good, and are easy to install on wood moldings, and they may be able to be installed on some metal moldings.
You make a valid point, that ideally, it would be best to not have the piece pressed directly against glass, or acrylic.
cheers
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Lucite or plexi is derived from natural gas but it is not made with gasoline.
https://www.plexi-craft.com/acrylic-plexiglass-lucite-clear-plastic.html
Q: What is acrylic made of?
A: Acrylic is a transparent thermoplastic known as polyacrylate and is derived from natural-gas. It is a composition of Methyl Methacrylate (MMA) and Poly Methyl Methacrylate (PMMA) resin. In short, its a petroleum-based product, so petroleum solvents and chemicals should always be avoided to prevent marking the surface.
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Lucite or plexi is derived from natural gas but it is not made with gasoline.
https://www.plexi-craft.com/acrylic-plexiglass-lucite-clear-plastic.html
Q: What is acrylic made of?
A: Acrylic is a transparent thermoplastic known as polyacrylate and is derived from natural-gas. It is a composition of Methyl Methacrylate (MMA) and Poly Methyl Methacrylate (PMMA) resin. In short, its a petroleum-based product, so petroleum solvents and chemicals should always be avoided to prevent marking the surface.
Plexi is a polymer and polymers are made of petroleum. Petro. is a liquid used in gasoline. I wouldn't use plexi...
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The part about the piece sticking to the glass or acrylic, applies more to something like a painting, than a poster, but under the right conditions, a poster certainly could bond to the glass or acrylic.
Honestly, I think a poster would be more susceptible to sticking than a painting. Being the paper is so thin and fragile. Especially, the old clay stuff.
Never had an issue with plexi, but I've seen a few posters stick to glass.
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And, as Rich has pointed out and stressed Many times --- glass retains and transfers heat:
http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,9874.msg184416.html#msg184416
Yet another reason to avoid it.
And thanks again for the info, Rich. You know that of which you speak. thumbsup.gif
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Honestly, I think a poster would be more susceptible to sticking than a painting. Being the paper is so thin and fragile. Especially, the old clay stuff.
Never had an issue with plexi, but I've seen a few posters stick to glass.
I have. I've seen a Forbidden Planet 1sheet cloudified and stuck to the inside of a rim-metal pushing the sides frame with the reds and title credits smeared off.
I can't stress this enough you: 1) you need to have the temperature and humidity under control (If you're serious about collecting posters you should invest in a dehumidifier from day 1) 2) NEVER have any kind of poster, artwork pushed up against a surface.
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And, as Rich has pointed out and stressed Many times --- glass retains and transfers heat:
http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,9874.msg184416.html#msg184416
Yet another reason to avoid it.
And thanks again for the info, Rich. You know that of which you speak. thumbsup.gif
Jeff whatever you want to believe. I could care less how you store your posters.
I'm just telling you how I store mine and others store theirs.
I would hate to see others follow suit on bad information, but do whatever you'd like.
Doubt the MOMA, Geppi's and others would be using UV-museum glass without proper research.
Doubt I'd be using UV-museum on my framed stuff without plenty of my own research.
That's a lot of the problem with message boards these days typically it's only a select few posting with lots of incorrect, misleading information spewed left and right.
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I have. I've seen a Forbidden Planet 1sheet cloudified and stuck to the inside of a rim-metal pushing the sides frame with the reds and title credits smeared off. (Q: Do you have a picture A: no I don't -so don't ask).
I can't stress this enough you: 1) you need to have the temperature and humidity under control (If you're serious about collecting posters you should invest in a dehumidifier from day 1) 2) NEVER have any kind of poster, artwork pushed up against a surface.
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At the end of the day, it comes down to what one prefers to use, regardless of the info available. coffee
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At the end of the day, it comes down to what one prefers to use, regardless of the info available. coffee
Indeed.
Glass and acrylic each have their pros and cons, of course.
It would be interesting to know why many museums often choose glass over acrylic.
Ever since I saw a rad, 300 gallon acrylic aquarium at the fish store that I visited regularly, back when I had a fish tank, I've thought that acrylic is cool. The tank seemed to be more optically pure, especially when next to the glass tanks in there. Although scientific results and many people say that high quality acrylic and glass are nearly indistinguishable, in terms of optical clarity, I'm sure that I can see a difference with high quality acrylic. The other positives of acrylic also make me prefer it. But to each his/her own.
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Actually, so did I used to display posters when of school age.
And then I stopped.
And many years later, four choice posters are now on permanent display, backed, framed, and behind the best glass in the business.
Simes posted the above comment in T's Bardot thread but I didnt want to hijack it with my off topic question, so I followed up here.
I didnt know you opted to use glass in your frames, Simon. You aren't concerned with possible heat and moisture retention? What was your reason to use glass over UV plexi?
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Ah, actually, the Saint poster is behind plexi.
The rest, the three Bonds, behind glass.
Must admit, I went with the framers' suggestions. Also, the glass offers a zero reflection option which the Saint frame does not have.
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Thanks for that info, Simon.