All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Authentication => Topic started by: CSM on March 03, 2012, 12:23:42 PM
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I've decided I am going to need to acquire a rolled (original release) one sheet for Blade Runner.
Unfortunately, the fold lines are far too prominent on this poster due to it's paper stock and the darkness of the poster (hence the need for a rolled version).
I know there are several variants out there - NSS vs. Studio issue with different markings.
I have heard rumblings there are rolled, 27x41 reprints out there - does anyone have experience with these? Is it true? Is there a handy guide comparing original vs. repro?
Thanks in advance!
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From my own experience... there are two (EDIT: US) versions of this poster.
1. Studio Issue -- It only has the NSS number in the lower right. I have full size (27"x41") bootleg that I got suckered into purchasing, but I don't have an original to do a proper comparison. The reason I know it is a bootleg is because Todd at MPGrading tested the paper and there is no alkaline in it. Movie poster paper stock didn't come without alkaline until the mid 80s so this poster was printed after this time. The paper stock also appears to have come from Japan (based on the presence of different pulps). This paper stock matches bootlegs for The Thing (also full length 41") and Pulp Fiction (regular) that Todd has also tested. Presumably that means these bootlegs were all printed at the same time in the mid-90s or later.
2. NSS Issue -- It has the NSS number in the lower right, but it also has the name in block print and an NSS paragraph just right of center at the bottom. This is a deceiving poster as the fine print text in that NSS paragraph is fuzzy -- which would normally lead you to believe that this is a bootleg. However, my full-sized (27"x41") rolled copy perfectly matches folded NSS versions and it was also authenticated by MPGrading. There was a discussion of this version on MOPO a while back and the consensus was that it is indeed original despite the fuzzy paragraph. I'm not sure if there are full size bootlegs of this version, but I would guess not. This style rarely shows up rolled... if there were boots you would think it would be more common.
Best of luck. If I were doing it again I would hold out for the NSS version. By the way, if anyone has a guaranteed original, folded studio issue -- I'd be happy to send over my rolled bootleg for a comparison. Maybe we can then figure out the tell-tale signs on how to avoid them. The text looks a bit fuzzy on mine, but so does my NSS so I don't think you can go by that exclusively.
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By the way, I also have a folded international version of this poster -- it has no NSS number, no block print text, no NSS paragraph, and of course no 'R' ratings box. I got mine from Australia and it has a ratings snipe on it. I assume it was printed separately so it can't be used to compare with the US studio version.
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I just ran some numbers from the eMovie DB for original release Blade Runner 1-sheets:
Total = 75
No Picture/Can't tell version = 18
Of the 57 remaining where we can tell:
Total NSS = 19
Total Studio = 21
Total Int'l = 17
Rolled NSS = 3
Rolled Studio = 12 -- Hmmmm...
Rolled Int'l = 2
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Studio posters, unlike NSS & int, are normally found rolled, so that, in and of itself, is not surprising.
Most of my thoughts on the subject can be found in the Unicorn thread, where I detail the reason why I sought out a 30x40 rather than even worrying about finding a real rolled one-sheet - http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,117.msg28628.html#msg28628 (http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,117.msg28628.html#msg28628)
My other question is... According to Dan's story, this poster was reprinted from the source at the time of release, and for several years after, for use by cable companies, video releases and just about any time someone asked for some posters, so was Todd at MPG able to offer any other 'authentication' beyond it being printed before the mid-'80s? If not, then one still wouldn't know when and for what purpose their poster was used and just how original it is...
I still would never own a rolled one-sheet on this title...
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Studio posters, unlike NSS & int, are normally found rolled, so that, in and of itself, is not surprising.
I partly agree. Rolled studio posters for Star Wars, Escape from New York, Back to the Future, etc... are ALWAYS more common that rolled NSS posters for the same title. However, the percentage of rolled vs. folded is ALWAYS heavily in favor of folded posters during this time period. Even for relatively later titles like BTTF.
My 'Hmmmm....' comes from the fact that a full 57% of the studio-issue posters Bruce has sold were rolled. That percentage seems WAY high regardless of who printed it.
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Thanks to you both for your insights and thoughts guys.
I somehow knew this was going to be way more complicated than I hoped it to be.
It seems, to be as safe as possible, and to ensure an original I am going to regretfully have to go the folded route...
Couple of questions however:
1) Matt - the Studio Issue bootleg you have - is it rolled?
2) For clarification which of these versions do you have and which one is the rolled one that was authenticated?
As per LAMP (pics are at this link to clarify the versions) http://www.learnaboutmovieposters.com/posters/db/poster.asp?pid=2171
Measures 27x41 and issued either rolled or folded. NOTICE: We have found 3 different variations of this poster. Because I can't show the entire bottom of the posters... I've broken them into important pieces.
Variation 1 - NSS Version
This version has NOTHING in the bottom left corner; Litho in U.S.A. (AND) the NSS tag in the center; BLADE RUNNER 820007 in the bottom right
Variation 2 - Studio Version
This variation has "PRINTED IN U.S.A." in the bottom left corner; NOTHING in the center; and "NSS 820007" in the bottom right.
Variation 3 - Odd NSS Version
In the bottom left corner has "PRINTED IN U.S.A."; in the center 'IN SMALLER PRINT' has "LITHO IN U.S.A." (AND) the NSS tag; In the bottom right has "BLADE RUNNER NSS 820007" in 'UNEVEN' print.
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1) Matt - the Studio Issue bootleg you have - is it rolled?
Rolled.
2) For clarification which of these versions do you have and which one is the rolled one that was authenticated?
As per LAMP (pics are at this link to clarify the versions) http://www.learnaboutmovieposters.com/posters/db/poster.asp?pid=2171
Measures 27x41 and issued either rolled or folded. NOTICE: We have found 3 different variations of this poster. Because I can't show the entire bottom of the posters... I've broken them into important pieces.
Variation 1 - NSS Version
This version has NOTHING in the bottom left corner; Litho in U.S.A. (AND) the NSS tag in the center; BLADE RUNNER 820007 in the bottom right
Variation 2 - Studio Version
This variation has "PRINTED IN U.S.A." in the bottom left corner; NOTHING in the center; and "NSS 820007" in the bottom right.
Variation 3 - Odd NSS Version
In the bottom left corner has "PRINTED IN U.S.A."; in the center 'IN SMALLER PRINT' has "LITHO IN U.S.A." (AND) the NSS tag; In the bottom right has "BLADE RUNNER NSS 820007" in 'UNEVEN' print.
Variation 2 - Labeled as bootleg by MPGrading
Variation 3 - Authenticated by MPGrading
I didn't realize there were 2 different NSS versions. As expected, I didn't differentiate between them (and I'm not sure I'd be able to given the picture sizes) when going through the eMovie archives.
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So, just to be clear, the rolled version that you have that was authenticated is Version 3 where the "Blade Runner" text is uneven with the NSS # on the right, there is "blurry text" in the middle and "Printed in USA" on the left?
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So, just to be clear, the rolled version that you have that was authenticated is Version 3 where the "Blade Runner" text is uneven with the NSS # on the right, there is "blurry text" in the middle and "Printed in USA" on the left?
Yes.
And by the way, there was an early 80s video release poster for this film... I'm not sure if that casts significant enough doubt on the extra-printings-from-the-original-plates-for-video-use story.
(http://emovieposter.com//images/moviestars/AA091011/550/special_blade_runner_video_JA00835_L.jpg)
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Thanks Matt.
1) Now do you have any knowledge on which of the folded versions/variations would be the hardest to come buy or is the most desirable (yes I know that's a subjective opinion)?
2) How much rarer is the International vs. the US (I don't really care which I acquire as they have the exact same art other than the credit/printing/NSS info etc)?
3) Are the International one sheets also 27x41?
I am putting you to work buddy because, as you can see, my forte certainly does not lie in post 1980 (daybill or otherwise) posters!
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After further research on eMovie:
Total = 75
No Picture/Can't tell version = 18
Of the 57 remaining where we can tell:
Total US Variant 1 = 9
Total US Variant 2 = 21
Total US Variant 3 = 10
Total Int'l = 17
Rolled US Variant 1 = 0
Rolled US Variant 2 = 12
Rolled US Variant 3 = 3
Rolled Int'l = 2
So Bruce has never sold a rolled Variant 1, meaning the few rolled NSS posters he did sell were all Variant 3s.
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1) Now do you have any knowledge on which of the folded versions/variations would be the hardest to come buy or is the most desirable (yes I know that's a subjective opinion)?
Seems subjective at best. If you think Bruce's auctions are a large enough sample size, then Variant 1 appears to be the most rare, although only by a tiny fraction. Variant 1 also seems to have the least doubt surrounding it...
2) How much rarer is the International vs. the US (I don't really care which I acquire as they have the exact same art other than the credit/printing/NSS info etc)?
In addition to the fine print text, NSS, etc... the int'l doesn't have the big 'R' rating in the lower right as well. Again, based only on Bruce's numbers it looks like approx. 1/3 int'l and 2/3 US posters.
3) Are the International one sheets also 27x41?
Bruce has listed all his int'l 1-sheets as being 27x41 so I would guess yes. I can measure mine, but it will probably take a few days/weeks to dig it out.
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This is what Dave posted on MOPO last year:
Hi Alan.
I have heard a rumor that a full sized one sheet repro/restrike for BLADE
RUNNER was made "after hours" at one of the nss printing facilities sometime
in the 80's, right around the same time they made the Star Wars one sheet
bootlegs. They say it is virtually indistinguishable from an original. As
far as I can tell, this is just a rumor. It could be true......but I have
seen NO EVIDENCE whatsoever even suggesting that it is. I think if it WERE
true......these rolled bootlegs would be everywhere (they aren't) just like
the Star Wars style A,B, and C bootlegs.
I have seen at least 50 different ORIGINAL one sheets for BLADE RUNNER
over the past 10 years........folded, rolled, mangled....etc. I've noticed at
least 3 different, possibly 4 different printings. To answer your question,
the splotchy nss paraghraph is common on some of them, even folded ones.
They weren't printing currency, so the quality control wasn't perfect. Maybe
the splotchy ones came at the beginning or end of the print run? We will
never know.
If it is full size 27" x 41" and it looks, feels and smells (yes, smells)
just like a folded one, and the paper it is printed on is the same, then it
is probably authentic.
Best,
Dave
David Lieberman
Dave also has a past sale of Variant 3 listed on his site... provenance was from the same Continental Litho employee who provided all his 60s/70s rolled NSS posters. http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg That seems pretty definitive to me...
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Yes.
And by the way, there was an early 80s video release poster for this film... I'm not sure if that casts significant enough doubt on the extra-printings-from-the-original-plates-for-video-use story.
(http://emovieposter.com//images/moviestars/AA091011/550/special_blade_runner_video_JA00835_L.jpg)
No, it really doesn't... so, I take that to mean that Todd wasn't able to 'authenticate' it any further than early '80s?
However, the percentage of rolled vs. folded is ALWAYS heavily in favor of folded posters during this time period. Even for relatively later titles like BTTF.
This was the changeover period and it can be rather title dependant. For the larger titles (Ghostbusters was another) the studios were already feeding the commercial market through people like Kirby, who sold at conventions and colleges. There are tons of rolled studio BttF, at one point there was a near endless supply on eBay that Dave L. practically made his living reselling. I would caution against misconstruing what you see for sale versus what exists.
The Lost in Translation Scarlett & Murray poster were a good example. The MPF folks became convinced that the Scarlett poster was a short-printed version, just because they were having difficulty finding one. I knew that theaters received them in equal quantities and Dale confirmed that they were printed equally, but it didn't stop the rumour from spreading...
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...so, I take that to mean that Todd wasn't able to 'authenticate' it any further than early '80s?
That is correct.
However, it sounds like all we have to back up the (printed after-hours from the original plates) and (extra print runs from the original plates for the video market) are just rumors and conjecture. I at least proved that there was a separate video poster. I don't see any proof of the other stories being true what so ever.
I'm not sure if you believe Dave's rolled Barbarella style B and rolled Italian Job 1-sheets are genuine, but his rolled Variant 3 was from the same source. I know MPGrading did fiber tests on some of Dave's older 60s/70s rolled posters from the same stash... 1 test was inconclusive and the others showed them as being from period appropriate paper stock. Between that and multiple folded copies of Variant 3 being sold through the years by eMovie poster and others -- I know it isn't definitive, but the balance of evidence seems pretty convincing to me that Variant 3 is the real deal.
You yourself said I should be wary of the stories people tell... why should I believe the 2nd/3rd hand stories you are re-telling? Do you have any comparisons with known originals? Have you sent anything for testing with MPGrading?
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This is what Dave posted on MOPO last year:
Dave also has a past sale of Variant 3 listed on his site... provenance was from the same Continental Litho employee who provided all his 60s/70s rolled NSS posters. http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg That seems pretty definitive to me...
Definitive that it could have been printed at any time in the early '80s. Dan was not talking about a bootleg run a la the Hairy Star Wars boots, he was talking about Warner publicity and anyone else who asked being able to get what the wanted on an as needed basis.
Dave's logic ("I think if it WERE true......these rolled bootlegs would be everywhere (they aren't) just like the Star Wars style A,B, and C bootlegs.") in the letter is faulty. If it were true and the posters were identical to those previously printed then you would never be able to tell the difference, so they could be everywhere and you'd never know. Plus there is a huge difference in the shear number of posters when you are talking about the tens of thousands of Star Wars Hairy Boots and the few thousand likely distributed for Blade Runner.
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That is correct.
However, it sounds like all we have to back up the (printed after-hours from the original plates) and (extra print runs from the original plates for the video market) are just rumors and conjecture. I at least proved that there was a separate video poster. I don't see any proof of the other stories being true what so ever.
I'm not sure if you believe Dave's rolled Barbarella style B and rolled Italian Job 1-sheets are genuine, but his rolled Variant 3 is from the same source. I know MPGrading did fiber tests on some of Dave's older 60s/70s rolled posters from the same stash... 1 test was inconclusive and the others showed them as being from period appropriate paper stock. Between that and multiple folded copies of Variant 3 being sold through the years by eMovie poster and others -- I know it isn't definitive, but the balance of evidence seems pretty convincing to me that Variant 3 is the real deal.
You yourself said I should be wary of the stories people tell... why should I believe the 2nd/3rd hand stories you are re-telling? Do you have any comparisons with known originals? Have you sent anything for testing with MPGrading?
It's a fact, not conjecture that Warner Bros. used theatrical one-sheets for video releases during the '80s.
You are asking to prove something that is likely unproveable. What would MPG be testing? My point was just that the MPG grading service can only establish date ranges that are not in issue in this case. Variant 3 may well be the real deal, but there may very well be plenty of Var 3 copies that came from Joe Cable guy.
BTW, a video poster with a price was usually used for a specific promotion - as an added poster to the original push, so it's existence, which wasn't unkown by any means, doesn't prove anything, except that at some point they discounted the price.
As for Dave's Find of early rolled posters, I have no doubt that they are authentic.
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Definitive that it could have been printed BY AN NSS EMPLOYEE at any time in the early '80s.
Fixed it. If the studio did another print run for the video market, why would they have used an NSS printer and NSS plates?
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It's a fact, not conjecture that Warner Bros. used theatrical one-sheets for video releases during the '80s.
It may be a fact that they sent out theatrical posters for use in the video market, but is it a proven fact that they did new print runs of theatrical posters specifically for the video market and that they weren't just clearing out old stock? Where did Dan get this info? Do you have a link to the details of his claims? I'm not doubting them, but they are just stories to me.
Based on the number of sales of the variants by Bruce, there seem to be a whole lot more of the rolled studio posters. Again, all we have is stories and a few inconclusive facts. But based on the balance of evidence currently available... it sure seems like if there was an extra printing by the studio, they likely used the studio plates.
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Fixed it. If the studio did another print run for the video market, why would they have used an NSS printer?
The plates were already made up and it wasn't just the studio asking for them. Video was it's wild west stage at the time.
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The plates were already made up and it wasn't just the studio asking for them. Video was it's wild west stage at the time.
So if I'm Joe video store owner in the early 80s... I could call up the NSS and they would agree to print posters from the original plates owned by a studio I had no affiliation with? Seems like more conjecture to me. How would they know which printer to contact? Seems much more likely the video stores would be contacting the studio for print material.
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It may be a fact that they sent out theatrical posters for use in the video market, but is it a proven fact that they did new print runs of theatrical posters specifically for the video market and that they weren't just clearing out old stock? Where did Dan get this info? Do you have a link to the details of his claims? I'm not doubting them, but they are just stories to me.
Based on the number of sales of the variants by Bruce, there seem to be a whole lot more of the rolled studio posters. Again, all we have is stories and a few inconclusive facts. But based on the balance of evidence currently available... it sure seems like if there was an extra printing by the studio, they likely used the studio plates.
Ask Dan. He was hip-deep into his spiderman research at the time. As I said in the Unicorn thread, he posted it on MPT or in the early NSFGE archives which are no longer around (at least, I wasn't able to find it) - NSFGE lost a good chunk of it's early days at one point.
There have always been way too many rolled studio versions of this poster available for sale. I am sure that ebay sales would follow similar lines to Bruce's data.
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So if I'm Joe video store owner in the early 80s... I could call up the NSS and they would agree to print posters from the original plates owned by a studio I had no affiliation with? Seems like more conjecture to me. How would they know which printer to contact? Seems much more likely the video stores would be contacting the studio for print material.
More like Joe Cable operator and others operating in conjunction with Warner publicity on the official side and after hour runs for 'friends and family'...
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Can help out with measurements / close-up shots of this one. I know its source.
Mark
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh557/ozcinemagic/bladerunner008.jpg)
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Mel make sure you document this on your site, I might one day want to buy the poster and ultimately will remember this thread existed and then not be able to find it through search.... ;D Seriously though, good work guys!
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Mel make sure you document this on your site, I might one day want to buy the poster and ultimately will remember this thread existed and then not be able to find it through search.... ;D Seriously though, good work guys!
I think Archie's got the right idea here. The whole thing is FUBAR - no one really has a definitive authentication test - so buy a 30x40 or 40x60 if you positively want a true "original." I'm perfectly happy with my 1992 re-release one sheet (same image) and the 2007 Struzan re-release (superior art IMHO and supposedly preferred by the director as well). My primary concern, as always, is digital repros pumped out by the Tom Loces of the world.
But in any event I have placed a link to this thread in the Authentication section of MoviePosterCollectors.com (http://www.moviepostercollectors.com/Authentications.html) so the valuable info in this thread won't be lost/obscured.
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Archie-
I'm trying to assemble the facts that we know. So far your contributions have been very light on usable facts:
It's a fact, not conjecture that Warner Bros. used theatrical one-sheets for video releases during the '80s.
Ok, although I don't know this to be true personally, I'll give you that one as a FACT.
According to Dan's story, this poster was reprinted from the source at the time of release, and for several years after, for use by cable companies, video releases and just about any time someone asked for some posters
No offense to you or Dan, but I rate that one as 2nd hand unsubstantiated CONJECTURE at this point.
This was the changeover period and it can be rather title dependant. For the larger titles (Ghostbusters was another) the studios were already feeding the commercial market through people like Kirby, who sold at conventions and colleges. There are tons of rolled studio BttF, at one point there was a near endless supply on eBay that Dave L. practically made his living reselling. I would caution against misconstruing what you see for sale versus what exists.
Sounds plausible. However, is there any proof that extra copies were in fact printed by the studios specifically for non-theatrical uses? I'll put on my conjecture hat and ask, couldn't they just be extras from a 2nd printing after it was a bigger hit than expected? Or in Blade Runners case, extra copies from their 3 different print runs after it bombed in the theaters? And does this mean that all rolled studio issue BTTF 1-sheets are also suspect? If studios printed a larger run for other uses does that make them no longer 'movie posters'? What about the extra posters Hammer printed up for Dracula has Risen From the Grave? They specifically printed extra and gave them out to people who wrote in... does that mean they aren't real movie posters? I rate that one as CIRCUMSTANTIAL which proves nothing about Blade Runner in question.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_izD68UiAE8Q/TJIsBPaJdPI/AAAAAAAACYg/3vv6TIPXdsI/s400/dracula_has_risen_from_the_grave_poster_07.jpg)
You are asking to prove something that is likely unproveable. What would MPG be testing? My point was just that the MPG grading service can only establish date ranges that are not in issue in this case. Variant 3 may well be the real deal, but there may very well be plenty of Var 3 copies that came from Joe Cable guy.
Exactly. I am asking you to back up your statements... if they can't be they probably shouldn't factor into a posters authenticity or not. In this case, MPGrading can prove that the poster was printed during the appropriate time period. However, you claim that it could have been in the months afterwards using the original plates and at the behest of the studios. Sure, but couldn't that have happened with EVERY SINGLE MOVIE that was released in the early days of the video/cable market? Are we not to trust any posters from this period? What is so special about Blade Runner? What about The Shining? Caddyshack? Creepshow? The Outsiders? Vacation? Risky Business? Right Stuff? Gremlins? Once Upon a Time in America? The Goonies? By your logic, studio or nss or rolled or folded, all Warner posters from the early 80s should be avoided just in case -- because, you never know. Right?
More like Joe Cable operator and others operating in conjunction with Warner publicity on the official side and after hour runs for 'friends and family'...
See my response above.
Alternatively, here is what we know:
1) There are three different styles of Blade Runner posters -- 2 NSS variants and 1 studio -- all of which or none of which could be original. ;D
2) If we think Bruce's sales figures are representative of the larger market, we can assume:
2a) All three styles show up folded as one would expect from original movie posters.
2b) One of the NSS styles has yet to show up rolled, but the other two do occasionally show up rolled -- again as one might expect during this time period.
2c) The studio printing shows up rolled much more commonly than the NSS poster does -- which one might expect with a normal run of posters from the mid-80s.
3) There are personal testimonies on MOPO that claim all three versions have turned up in lots bought directly from theaters. Conjecture, yes, but it is directly related to the posters in question and it won't be used as definitive proof. I'm going to allow it ;)
4) Variant 3 (NSS with offset name/number) showed up rolled in the Continental Litho stash Dave acquired from an NSS employee and that also included other posters most everyone believes to be genuine (and amazingly given how far back they go, rolled).
5) There is a full-sized, confirmed (based on fiber match to modern bootlegs, and lack of alkaline) bootleg of the studio issue Blade Runner poster. I'm willing to send mine to someone with a confirmed original -- preferably folded and from a theater lot just to be case -- for comparison if they'll share the results here on the board.
Nothing from the above (except for the bootleg of course) strikes as particularly fishy for an early 80s movie poster. If we are willing to entertain stories like the ones you are suggesting, then they should by no means be limited to just Blade Runner -- unless of course you have evidence to the contrary. So either all posters from the early 80s are suspect (Warner only?), or what seems to be the more likely case, there are rolled Blade Runner posters of various print runs that are likely originals -- just beware of bootlegs.
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the solution it seems is buy a THEATRE USED copy. In reality they are really the ORIGINAL posters huh?
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the solution it seems is buy a THEATRE USED copy. In reality they are really the ORIGINAL posters huh?
So unused posters aren't original? ;)
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playing devils advocate. but are they? if a few hundred/thousand extra are printed, never used. Never sent out. Later flogged off via the back door. again DEVILS ADVOCATE.
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playing devils advocate. but are they? if a few hundred/thousand extra are printed, never used. Never sent out. Later flogged off via the back door. again DEVILS ADVOCATE.
I know, I'm just giving you shit. But in reality, you could never know as they are from the same print run, on the same paper, etc... That argument could probably be made for EVERY modern poster. Without fail I always see new posters on eBay before I ever see them in the actual theaters.
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I could be getting confused with insert here as I haven't thought about this particular poster for ages, but wasn't there something about the image cropping on the reproductions too?
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I could be getting confused with insert here as I haven't thought about this particular poster for ages, but wasn't there something about the image cropping on the reproductions too?
Yeah, you are thinking about the insert...
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Archie-
I'm trying to assemble the facts that we know. So far your contributions have been very light on usable facts:
Ok, although I don't know this to be true personally, I'll give you that one as a FACT.
No offense to you or Dan, but I rate that one as 2nd hand unsubstantiated CONJECTURE at this point.
Sounds plausible. However, is there any proof that extra copies were in fact printed by the studios specifically for non-theatrical uses? I'll put on my conjecture hat and ask, couldn't they just be extras from a 2nd printing after it was a bigger hit than expected? Or in Blade Runners case, extra copies from their 3 different print runs after it bombed in the theaters? And does this mean that all rolled studio issue BTTF 1-sheets are also suspect? If studios printed a larger run for other uses does that make them no longer 'movie posters'? What about the extra posters Hammer printed up for Dracula has Risen From the Grave? They specifically printed extra and gave them out to people who wrote in... does that mean they aren't real movie posters? I rate that one as CIRCUMSTANTIAL which proves nothing about Blade Runner in question.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_izD68UiAE8Q/TJIsBPaJdPI/AAAAAAAACYg/3vv6TIPXdsI/s400/dracula_has_risen_from_the_grave_poster_07.jpg)
Exactly. I am asking you to back up your statements... if they can't be they probably shouldn't factor into a posters authenticity or not. In this case, MPGrading can prove that the poster was printed during the appropriate time period. However, you claim that it could have been in the months afterwards using the original plates and at the behest of the studios. Sure, but couldn't that have happened with EVERY SINGLE MOVIE that was released in the early days of the video/cable market? Are we not to trust any posters from this period? What is so special about Blade Runner? What about The Shining? Caddyshack? Creepshow? The Outsiders? Vacation? Risky Business? Right Stuff? Gremlins? Once Upon a Time in America? The Goonies? By your logic, studio or nss or rolled or folded, all Warner posters from the early 80s should be avoided just in case -- because, you never know. Right?
See my response above.
Alternatively, here is what we know:
1) There are three different styles of Blade Runner posters -- 2 NSS variants and 1 studio -- all of which or none of which could be original. ;D
2) If we think Bruce's sales figures are representative of the larger market, we can assume:
2a) All three styles show up folded as one would expect from original movie posters.
2b) One of the NSS styles has yet to show up rolled, but the other two do occasionally show up rolled -- again as one might expect during this time period.
2c) The studio printing shows up rolled much more commonly than the NSS poster does -- which one might expect with a normal run of posters from the mid-80s.
3) There are personal testimonies on MOPO that claim all three versions have turned up in lots bought directly from theaters. Conjecture, yes, but it is directly related to the posters in question and it won't be used as definitive proof. I'm going to allow it ;)
4) Variant 3 (NSS with offset name/number) showed up rolled in the Continental Litho stash Dave acquired from an NSS employee and that also included other posters most everyone believes to be genuine (and amazingly given how far back they go, rolled).
5) There is a full-sized, confirmed (based on fiber match to modern bootlegs, and lack of alkaline) bootleg of the studio issue Blade Runner poster. I'm willing to send mine to someone with a confirmed original -- preferably folded and from a theater lot just to be case -- for comparison if they'll share the results here on the board.
Nothing from the above (except for the bootleg of course) strikes as particularly fishy for an early 80s movie poster. If we are willing to entertain stories like the ones you are suggesting, then they should by no means be limited to just Blade Runner -- unless of course you have evidence to the contrary. So either all posters from the early 80s are suspect (Warner only?), or what seems to be the more likely case, there are rolled Blade Runner posters of various print runs that are likely originals -- just beware of bootlegs.
1. I personally took regular Warner Bros one sheets from Video stores in the '80s. Back then, the main 'movie poster guy' at the local poster shop used to cruise video stores specifically for WB poster that he would re-sell as orginal theater posters, because they were identical. I saw him do it, first hand.
2. Conjuecture or not, at this point it doesn't really matter. Dan was relaying a story told to him first hand from one of the guys doing the printing, if I recall correctly. Dan has no reason to make this up (neither do I for that matter). His story happens to make a great deal of sense when one considers the near endless supply of one sheets, and only one-sheets, on this title over the past 25 years... I mentioned it only so that anyone in passing can take the information for whatever they want.
3. Kirby and Phil both used to tell stories about posters being feed to the general public through alternative channels. I believe that it was Kirby who sold 500 rolled copies of each Ghostbusters poster at a single event - but I could be confusing this with one of the many longtime dealers who have shared similar stories. By the end of the '80s, studios started trying to sell directly to consumers via in-theater handout catalogs (Paramount and WB being the primary culprits - Batman had a high-gloss version onesheet and even a cardboard mobile for sale - I have the mobile hanging in my closet). There can be any number of sources and avenues for these posters. When you have the answer to the rest of the questions that you asked in this paragraph, then please let the rest of the hobby know, because we have been debating many of those issues for, at least, the last 10 years.
4. The "if you can't prove it, then it shouldn't be mentioned" is a ridiculous stance. That the posters were printed in the general time period was never the issue, so MPG, while it was helpful in finding your bootleg, does absolutely nothing to address the possibilities that Dan and I mentioned. I addressed some of your questions (why Blade Runner?) in the Unicorn thread.
Personally, I would be wary to some degree of any WB poster from that time period (82ish-90ish, when the double sided posters started kicking in), that's just me. Other people's milage may vary. The difference here is that we have a report regarding Blade Runner and we don't have a report for the other films that you mentioned. I seem to remember that BR was just one of a few titles - rolled versions of Vacation have also been a dime a dozen, so I would not be surprised if something was up with that title as well.
Paramount 're-struck' Say Anything, among several other titles, to sell in their own catalog. WB re-struck Dirty Harry in '88 or '89 so that they could sell high priced versioned autographed by Eastwood. These are facts. If studios did that, then what other extremes do you think they reached.
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I hear what you are saying Archie, and I don't have any reason to doubt Dan -- even though I don't know him. However:
1) I don't doubt you took WB posters directly from video stores, I labeled that one as a FACT. Did you happen to personally take a BR? Do you remember which variant it was?
2) Is there any confirmation that WB wasn't just using extra stock as opposed to printing extra runs months/years later? Later studio restrikes are somewhat common (Star Wars, Raiders, etc...), but they are usually identifiable as such.
3) Even if the studio printed them, they wouldn't have printed all three styles... how could we ever know which was reprinted? All three of these posters show up as folded in original theater collections... I don't think the potential that 1 style might have had an extra studio run should invalidate the whole lot, do you?
4) Even if the studio printed them, are they not still original posters? They were printed by the studio using the original plates, no? See my Dracula Has Risen From the Grave question below...
5) Finally, I never claimed "if you can't prove it, then it shouldn't be mentioned". I agree, that would be a ridiculous stance. However, I do claim, "if you can't prove it, you can't prove it." Until definitive evidence comes out, these stories can be considered as part of the balance of evidence, but they don't and shouldn't prove or disprove anything by themselves.
As of right now, the fact that Bruce sold 70+ 1-sheets for this title does seem a bit high, but I wouldn't say the market is flooded with them. Star Wars, Raiders, BTTF, all have way more sales. And I don't think you can simply point to the other size posters (30x40, 40x60, etc...) being few and far between as proof of an over printed 1-sheet. The NSS were the only ones printing these sizes and they were phased out entirely less than 3 years later. I mean how many 40x60s do you see for Raiders vs. the 1-sheets? The studios only printed 1-sheets, and you've already mentioned studio posters seem to be more prevalent for most 80s posters, especially rolled ones.
Once again, nothing seems particularly fishy about this poster -- even if a few extra copies entered the market via video/cable outlets. Just watch out for bootlegs, which right now are confirmed in the studio style.
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Y'all take a look at this sale that just ended for $192 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blade-Runner-original-rolled-U-S-one-sheet-movie-poster-/120867393906)
The seller posted the wrong stock image of the poster.
Isn't this the studio version MPGrading rejected?
Left:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Left.JPG)
Right:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Right.JPG)
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And what about this alleged pre-release poster? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLADE-RUNNER-Original-Movie-One-Sheet-1sh-Poster-Pre-Release-w-oRATING-No-Folds-/280834630430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41630c631e#ht_5358wt_1176)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Pre-1.jpg)
Printed in USA on left:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Pre-3.jpg)
Nothing on right:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Pre-2.jpg)
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Y'all take a look at this sale that just ended for $192 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blade-Runner-original-rolled-U-S-one-sheet-movie-poster-/120867393906)
The seller posted the wrong stock image of the poster.
Isn't this the studio version MPGrading rejected?
Left:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Left.JPG)
Right:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Right.JPG)
I was watching that one Mel and in fact it is one of the reasons I started this thread.
It IS the same style that MPGrading advised Matt was a bootleg. Now that doesn't mean conclusively that the one auctioned is a bootleg as well but
it was certainly enough of a concern to cause me not to bid! Oh and couple that with the stock image used and the "0" feedback of the seller ;)
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I've been wondering for a while about my Version 3 (http://www.filmonpaper.com/posters/blade-runner-one-sheet-usa/) (NSS text in centre) that I bought several years ago from Granada Posters (a seller I trust) but it's good/interesting to hear that it's likely to be legit. The bloke who runs the Movie Poster Art Gallery (MPAG) in London is convinced that V3 is a bootleg and last year he had a V1 or V2 listed (can't remember which) with text along the lines of 'We've recently verified with someone on the production team that the fuzzy NSS text version was not an official printing'. I'll have to ask him who he actually spoke to because I don't consider that to be any kind of proof either.
I actually ended up picking up a V2 (studio version) from Jerry Ohlinger's store in NYC last year (well worth a visit, as Mel can attest) since I was starting to think my V3 was a bootleg. Matt, do you think all of the studio versions are bogus? Or could it be that a copy run was done using an original studio version?
What I've thought about the different Blade Runner versions all along is this: if you were trying to bootleg a popular poster would you not try and make it identical to one that was known to be legit, not add extras on there (Printed in USA, NSS text)? I'd argue it's perfectly reasonable that there'd be differing styles, some of which were perhaps printed after the initial release.
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Something VERY odd is going on with that Blade Runner you posted Mel.
The winner bidder also has "0" feedback and is a new account & now the seller has relisted the poster (since presumably HE was the winning bidder)
with a $130 starting point and a $350 Buy it Now.
Even if he didn't shill his own auction, it's still another major red flag that he's selling ANOTHER rolled copy so quickly!
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I actually ended up picking up a V2 (studio version) from Jerry Ohlinger's store in NYC last year (well worth a visit, as Mel can attest) since I was starting to think my V3 was a bootleg. Matt, do you think all of the studio versions are bogus? Or could it be that a copy run was done using an original studio version?
Ed - is your V2 rolled?
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Isn't this the studio version MPGrading rejected?
From what has already been posted, that guy's auctions do sound fishy. But not all studio posters are fake. There are plenty of rolled and folded examples having been sold by HA and eMovie. Again, I do have a fake of this poster... if anyone has a folded studio version from a trusted source, I'd be happy to send mine out to see if we can't find ways to authenticate this particular variant.
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Chris: Yep, it is.
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There are plenty of rolled and folded examples having been sold by HA and eMovie.
Matt, you know as well as I do that just because HA or Bruce sold the rolled copies it does not 100% conclusively mean they weren't bootlegs as well.
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Chris: Yep, it is.
Thanks Ed.
The disproportionate # of rolled V2's (as per Matt's analysis) coupled with MPG's opinion that there is at least 1 rolled V2 bootleg out there
could also lead one to be very wary in buying a rolled V2
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Chris: I totally agree and would have thought twice had I known about the MPG grading prior to purchase.
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Chris: Yep, it is.
If you weren't in England I'd send you my bootleg for authentication... Anyone have a studio issue on this side of the pond?
I can try to take a high res image... but if these were printed by the same folks as the PF regular suspected bootleg, then I'm guessing it will be tough to simply look at photos unless they've been shot at the same time and color corrected properly.
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"Matt, you know as well as I do that just because HA or Bruce sold the rolled copies it does not 100% conclusively mean they weren't bootlegs as well."
The difference with us vs everyone else is that if you ever get good proof we accidentally sold you a bootleg, we take it back at full price and eat the loss ourselves, even if it is YEARS later!
Try this with ANY other seller and see what happens, but keep the phone far from your face because when you tell them you bought it from them years ago because the raucous laughter will deafen you!
Bruce
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I was watching that one Mel and in fact it is one of the reasons I started this thread.
It IS the same style that MPGrading advised Matt was a bootleg. Now that doesn't mean conclusively that the one auctioned is a bootleg as well but
it was certainly enough of a concern to cause me not to bid! Oh and couple that with the stock image used and the "0" feedback of the seller ;)
Those close ups also show a lot of spots on the poster..are those spots on the legit versions too?
Stew
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OK, HC ya got me intrigued and motivated to put on my "extreme poster nerd" hat and put together these examples - sans long text explanations. Let me know if I got them right. (I couldn't find a Version 1 Rolled):
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-1-Folded.jpg)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-2-Folded.jpg)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-2-Rolled.jpg)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-3-Folded.jpg)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-3-Rolled.jpg)
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"'extreme poster nerd' hat" rofl1
Seriously, this thread is a good 'un. I'm sure I don't speak for myself when I say "we are in the presence of greatness." Good work, fellas. thumbup
The twists and turns for all the possibilities on this title are incredible. The MPGrading fiber tests, are cool, as scientific facts are highly valid, in many cases. Maybe another option could be to find people who worked for the NSS and/or the studio, who had a part in printing these back in the day. That way, the info. would be directly from the source.
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I added an authentication to MPC based on the analysis so far. (http://www.moviepostercollectors.com/MPC_Authentication_Blade_Runner.html)
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I added an authentication to MPC based on the analysis so far. (http://www.moviepostercollectors.com/MPC_Authentication_Blade_Runner.html)
Nice Mel! Guess if I buy one it'll be a Version 1... Were there any union logos on these?
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Seriously, this thread is a good 'un. I'm sure I don't speak for myself when I say "we are in the presence of greatness." Good work, fellas. thumbup
Agree big time!
Its been both entertaining and educational.
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Thanks Mel. I was going to do something very similar. I even downloaded the 5 different pics from the HA database but didn't have time to edit them now.
So I think I will go through HA sales results and see if those totals are similar to what Matt found in Bruce's database...
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"Matt, you know as well as I do that just because HA or Bruce sold the rolled copies it does not 100% conclusively mean they weren't bootlegs as well."
The difference with us vs everyone else is that if you ever get good proof we accidentally sold you a bootleg, we take it back at full price and eat the loss ourselves, even if it is YEARS later!
Try this with ANY other seller and see what happens, but keep the phone far from your face because when you tell them you bought it from them years ago because the raucous laughter will deafen you!
Bruce
Of course Bruce. I was not implying anything to the contrary.
However, can you lend any of your expertise to this discussion on which rolled version is most likely to be legitimate?
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The problem with any poster that is found in larger numbers is that even if it is 100% authentic, it is still likely to prove far less valuable over time, because as the price goes up, collectors tend to go for the "rare" style.
So if I personally was going for this poster, I would hold out for the NSS version. But that's just me.
Bruce
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The problem with any poster that is found in larger numbers is that even if it is 100% authentic, it is still likely to prove far less valuable over time, because as the price goes up, collectors tend to go for the "rare" style.
So if I personally was going for this poster, I would hold out for the NSS version. But that's just me.
Bruce
So that would mean Variation #3? There are no known examples (yet) of a rolled NSS Variation #1...
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Mel, could you please edit your post to include the International version? Both folded and rolled (if you can find one).
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I hear what you are saying Archie, and I don't have any reason to doubt Dan -- even though I don't know him. However:
1) I don't doubt you took WB posters directly from video stores, I labeled that one as a FACT. Did you happen to personally take a BR? Do you remember which variant it was?
2) Is there any confirmation that WB wasn't just using extra stock as opposed to printing extra runs months/years later? Later studio restrikes are somewhat common (Star Wars, Raiders, etc...), but they are usually identifiable as such.
3) Even if the studio printed them, they wouldn't have printed all three styles... how could we ever know which was reprinted? All three of these posters show up as folded in original theater collections... I don't think the potential that 1 style might have had an extra studio run should invalidate the whole lot, do you?
4) Even if the studio printed them, are they not still original posters? They were printed by the studio using the original plates, no? See my Dracula Has Risen From the Grave question below...
5) Finally, I never claimed "if you can't prove it, then it shouldn't be mentioned". I agree, that would be a ridiculous stance. However, I do claim, "if you can't prove it, you can't prove it." Until definitive evidence comes out, these stories can be considered as part of the balance of evidence, but they don't and shouldn't prove or disprove anything by themselves.
As of right now, the fact that Bruce sold 70+ 1-sheets for this title does seem a bit high, but I wouldn't say the market is flooded with them. Star Wars, Raiders, BTTF, all have way more sales. And I don't think you can simply point to the other size posters (30x40, 40x60, etc...) being few and far between as proof of an over printed 1-sheet. The NSS were the only ones printing these sizes and they were phased out entirely less than 3 years later. I mean how many 40x60s do you see for Raiders vs. the 1-sheets? The studios only printed 1-sheets, and you've already mentioned studio posters seem to be more prevalent for most 80s posters, especially rolled ones.
Once again, nothing seems particularly fishy about this poster -- even if a few extra copies entered the market via video/cable outlets. Just watch out for bootlegs, which right now are confirmed in the studio style.
1. I was just providing some background, not arguing the point. I did not take a BR - my collecting started a bit later, but BR was my first have-to-have (along with the Star Wars Style A)... I had BR on my radar for over 20 years before I pulled the trigger, mainly because I was waiting for a 30x40 and never felt rush to purchase a one sheet because there were always a ton available on the Bay (far more than Star Wars A, Raiders and other such titles).
2. That was always my assumption, but Dan's story specifically mentioned that these were additional printing and not excess stock that was sitting around - it's the main reason that I remember Dan's story.
The studio re-strikes are a bit of a different animal than what we are talking about with BR. Everyone knows about the Star Wars/Raider re-strikes, but I thought that I would mention some less well known examples. Paramount ran a promo one summer where ticket buyer could order one of 4 titles (The Hunt for Red October was one, Lame Ducks was another - it was shelved and then released much later as Brain Donors and I don't recall the others).
3. Exactly my point, how can we know what was reprinted and what wasn't. We may very well never know what's what with these posters and the easiest way to not have to worry about it is to avoid it in the first place.
4. That's where definitions and debates come into play. It's a grey area, much like Mondos, where everyone has their own opinion.
5. Part of the reason that I tend to believe Dan's story is that it helped explain what I was already seeing in the marketplace. For years on eBay, BR one sheets were far more prevalent than other '80s titles.
BTW, is anyone surprised that we are seeing bootlegs from Asia?
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Heritage Sales Results (keep in mind this is less than definitive as HA tends to sell the same poster multiple times):
Total - 41
V1 Folded - 15
V1 Rolled - 0
V2 Folded - 14
V2 Rolled - 3
V3 Folded - 2
V3 Rolled - 2
International Folded - 4
International Rolled - 0
Bruce's/Emovieposter Sales Results (as per Matt):
Total = 75
No Picture/Can't tell version = 18
Of the 57 remaining where we can tell:
Total US Variant 1 = 9
Total US Variant 2 = 21
Total US Variant 3 = 10
Total Int'l = 17
Rolled US Variant 1 = 0
Rolled US Variant 2 = 12
Rolled US Variant 3 = 3
Rolled Int'l = 2
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Mel, could you please edit your post to include the International version? Both folded and rolled (if you can find one).
The internationals definitely have "Printed in USA" in the lower left - checked HA and Emovie.....
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-int.jpg)
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From what has already been posted, that guy's auctions do sound fishy. But not all studio posters are fake. There are plenty of rolled and folded examples having been sold by HA and eMovie. Again, I do have a fake of this poster... if anyone has a folded studio version from a trusted source, I'd be happy to send mine out to see if we can't find ways to authenticate this particular variant.
Matt - wouldn't it be better to compare your rolled studio bootleg to an authenticated rolled studio vs. a folded example? Or is the concern that there are no legitimate rolled studio versions?
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The internationals definitely have "Printed in USA" in the lower left - checked HA and Emovie.....
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-auth/BR-int.jpg)
Thanks Mel - can I just suggest that you highlight the fact there is no ratings box as well?
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cool1
I am very happy about all the work/opinions/information that has been brought together in this thread.
I had searched a great deal to find a comparison of Blade Runner one sheets and it turns out the answer was to have us APFers create our own!
Now we just need to get a more in depth consensus and analysis on which we feel to be legitimate and which bootlegs.
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Matt - wouldn't it be better to compare your rolled studio bootleg to an authenticated rolled studio vs. a folded example? Or is the concern that there are no legitimate rolled studio versions?
Not sure it would matter either way as they should be identical aside from the folds. I just figured that it would be easier to find a guaranteed original in a folded state -- ideally from a theater lot purchase so there is no uncertainty.
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Not sure it would matter either way as they should be identical aside from the folds.
Well not necessarily - if your rolled is a bootleg, the colours could be subtly different and/or there could be cropping etc. vs. an original rolled (if they exist).
You are right thatthere is a far better chance of having a confirmed folded original though...
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Make sure to add the SJP version Mel; it truly is the best one of the four.. Well five counting the SJP. ;) Didn't he do a top notch job on the photoshop...
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5351/makeitstop.png)
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Might as well just put a horse's head there Charlie ;)
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And what about this alleged pre-release poster? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLADE-RUNNER-Original-Movie-One-Sheet-1sh-Poster-Pre-Release-w-oRATING-No-Folds-/280834630430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41630c631e#ht_5358wt_1176)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/BR-Pre-1.jpg)
Well I'll answer my own post, now that I'm somewhat better educated on the subject. This is an international rolled poster.
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Mel, do you know what that rolled International sold for?
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Mel, do you know what that rolled International sold for?
I think it just ended without bids.
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5. Part of the reason that I tend to believe Dan's story is that it helped explain what I was already seeing in the marketplace. For years on eBay, BR one sheets were far more prevalent than other '80s titles.
Hi Archie-
I hope you don't think I'm picking on you just to be a dick. I really am just trying to get the bottom of this. As for this last statement... to play devils advocate... would HA and eMovie also be representative of that distribution? I just checked Raiders sales and counted the following:
Raiders '81 (not including restrikes, R82s or Killians)
66 HA
71 eMovie
Compare that with BR
41 HA
75 eMovie
Again, this proves nothing, but it also seems that BR is no more prevalent than Raiders. Harrison Ford was HOT, HOT, HOT in '82 having come off Star Wars, ESB, and Raiders. I'm sure there was every expectation from the Warner that BR would be a huge hit... and they likely would have printed up plenty of posters in preparation for that. As we all know, that didn't happen and BR bombed at the box office. It sure seems likely that the extra posters handed out to cable companies and video stores could have just been extra stock. I'm sure if someone was around back that and saw the studio pulling out stacks and stacks of unused posters that they could have easily assumed they were freshly printed, but that may have not been the case.
That is all admittedly rampant speculation on my part, but based on the numbers of past sales it doesn't appear at first glance that BR posters are available in any significantly greater quantities than Ford's other most comparable film from the same time period.
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Well not necessarily - if your rolled is a bootleg, the colours could be subtly different and/or there could be cropping etc. vs. an original rolled (if they exist).
You are right thatthere is a far better chance of having a confirmed folded original though...
I meant a confirmed rolled vs. a confirmed folded -- they should be identical minus the folds.
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By the way, does anyone know what this is? I've seen it labeled as an English 1-sheet...
(http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/BladeRunner/Images/BladeRunner-Poster-Unknown.jpg)
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Hi Archie-
I hope you don't think I'm picking on you just to be a dick. I really am just trying to get the bottom of this. As for this last statement... to play devils advocate... would HA and eMovie also be representative of that distribution? I just checked Raiders sales and counted the following:
Raiders '81 (not including restrikes, R82s or Killians)
66 HA
71 eMovie
Compare that with BR
41 HA
75 eMovie
Again, this proves nothing, but it also seems that BR is no more prevalent than Raiders. Harrison Ford was HOT, HOT, HOT in '82 having come off Star Wars, ESB, and Raiders. I'm sure there was every expectation from the Warner that BR would be a huge hit... and they likely would have printed up plenty of posters in preparation for that. As we all know, that didn't happen and BR bombed at the box office. It sure seems likely that the extra posters handed out to cable companies and video stores could have just been extra stock. I'm sure if someone was around back that and saw the studio pulling out stacks and stacks of unused posters that they could have easily assumed they were freshly printed, but that may have not been the case.
That is all admittedly rampant speculation on my part, but based on the numbers of past sales it doesn't appear at first glance that BR posters are available in any significantly greater quantities than Ford's other most comparable film from the same time period.
On sale on ebay (US originals) right now:
13 BR (one sheet only)
5 Raiders ('81 one sheets only)
The approximate proportion varies greatly over time as you would expect, but I would estimate this is fairly representative since the beginning of eBay.
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I meant a confirmed rolled vs. a confirmed folded -- they should be identical minus the folds.
Well that makes more sense ;)
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On sale on ebay (US originals) right now:
13 BR (one sheet only)
5 Raiders ('81 one sheets only)
The approximate proportion varies greatly over time as you would expect, but I would estimate this is fairly representative since the beginning of eBay.
Weren't you also the one who said just two short days ago...
I would caution against misconstruing what you see for sale versus what exists.
I'm just sayin' ;D
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Interesting thread.
Mel, mind if I add those Blade Runner pics to our site for reference?
and just to clarify:
We had one consignor with hundreds of ROLLED one sheets and half sheets who worked at Continental litho during the 70's to early 80s.
We had ANOTHER consignor who was a studio executive from 1968-72 that had access to an nss facility where he pulled out ROLLED one sheets and kept them each time he visited.
We have had two consignors who used to work at Gore Graphics that had lots of rolled Printer's Proofs from the 70's and 80's.
and......starting in our eBay NO RESERVE auctions this Thursday we have a folded NM-M C9-C10 Blade Runner one sheet.
(http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aucpics2011/db12ebay.jpg)
Larger photo: http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aucpics2011/db12.jpg (http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aucpics2011/db12.jpg)
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Interesting thread.
Mel, mind if I add those Blade Runner pics to our site for reference?
and just to clarify:
We had one consignor with hundreds of ROLLED one sheets and half sheets who worked at Continental litho during the 70's to early 80s.
We had ANOTHER consignor who was a studio executive from 1968-72 that had access to an nss facility where he pulled out ROLLED one sheets and kept them each time he visited.
We have had two consignors who used to work at Gore Graphics that had lots of rolled Printer's Proofs from the 70's and 80's.
Well, that adds almost nothing to the discussion...
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except making me want to start my THEY ARENT PRINTERS PROOFS rant ;)
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Well, that adds almost nothing to the discussion...
And Dave, can you confirm which one of those consignors provided the rolled V3 you've sold?
I am assuming the Continental litho employee based on your post and Matt's earlier post.
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Yes, that is correct.
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Interesting thread.
Mel, mind if I add those Blade Runner pics to our site for reference?
and......starting in our eBay NO RESERVE auctions this Thursday we have a folded NM-M C9-C10 Blade Runner one sheet.
(http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aucpics2011/db12ebay.jpg)
Sure, no prob. And the folds on the one you are auctioning are not really distracting, so who needs a rolled copy anyway....
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Yes, that is correct.
Thanks.
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Sure, no prob. And the folds on the one you are auctioning are not really distracting, so who needs a rolled copy anyway....
I never thought I would hear you say that Mel!
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Sure, no prob. And the folds on the one you are auctioning are not really distracting, so who needs a rolled copy anyway....
I do - once we figure out collectively which is likely to stand the most chance of being authentic
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I do - once we figure out collectively which is likely to stand the most chance of being authentic
The 30x40...
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The 30x40...
Yes, yes I know. I am trying to have my $ cake and eat it too though.
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If the Version 3 "Odd NSS" is legit - which it appears to be based on info from Dave - it's certainly not hard to find a rolled one on Ebay from a generally reputable dealer. I'd get it and send it to MPGrading....
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If the Version 3 "Odd NSS" is legit - which it appears to be based on info from Dave - it's certainly not hard to find a rolled one on Ebay from a generally reputable dealer. I'd get it and send it to MPGrading....
It is weird that the V3 would turn out to be the legit rolled version when (on the surface at least) it is the one that most looks like a bootleg mesmrized
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It is weird that the V3 would turn out to be the legit rolled version when (on the surface at least) it is the one that most looks like a bootleg mesmrized
But also the least common...
V1 HA+eMovie = 24
V2 HA+eMovie = 38
V3 HA+eMovie = 14
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But also the least common...
V1 HA+eMovie = 24
V2 HA+eMovie = 38
V3 HA+eMovie = 14
Matt - I thought we concluded there are no known examples of a rolled V1?
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are fake Blade Runner posters called REPLICANTS?
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are fake Blade Runner posters called REPLICANTS?
If not, perhaps the should be. Then we can all be Blade Runners!
How's that for embracing the inner poster/cinema nerd?
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But also the least common...
V1 HA+eMovie = 24
V2 HA+eMovie = 38
V3 HA+eMovie = 14
This should be a sum of rolled and folded for each of the three styles. I didn't include the ones without photos at eMovie as we can't determine the style.
I'm just saying that if V3 is a bootleg, you'd think we'd see more of them...
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This should be a sum of rolled and folded for each of the three styles. I didn't include the ones without photos at eMovie as we can't determine the style.
I'm just saying that if V3 is a bootleg, you'd think we'd see more of them...
Unless they were the over-run...
Dun-dun-dun!!!
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Very interesting read...I'm glad I'm not that anal about condition and got my folded one donkey's years ago.
And archie...your new avatar is FREAKING ME OUT.
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Very interesting read...I'm glad I'm not that anal about condition and got my folded one donkey's years ago.
You and me both. What a nightmare.
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You and me both. What a nightmare.
Well, in all fairness to BR, we could posterbate all day long about *any* mildly popular rolled poster from the 80s. There is nothing unique about this poster.
All the speculative arguments presented here against BR:
Was there extra indistinguishable print run from the original plates used for the video market?
Could there be high quality reprints/bootlegs?
How *exactly* do we distinguish between different print runs?
What if one is a fake?
How do we spot modern high quality reprints from internet auction photos?
Etc...
could be easily applied to other posters.
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Don't get me wrong Harry.
I'm just breathing a sigh of relief that I don't have to worry about the provenance of my poster.
This is a very informative and valuable thread.
Without all the angling by APF's finest, we would all be in the dark about the uncertain origins of this and other posters from the 80s.
A fine piece of reading. Thanks!
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are fake Blade Runner posters called REPLICANTS?
And are they retired when you find out? ;D
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Well that didn't last long... it was just posted this morning.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blade-Runner-PRINTER-PROOF-1982-28x42-ART-ONLY-100-Original-Movie-Poster-/300674595893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46019a3c35#ht_607wt_1165
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Well, in all fairness to BR, we could posterbate all day long about *any* mildly popular rolled poster from the 80s. There is nothing unique about this poster.
All the speculative arguments presented here against BR:
Was there extra indistinguishable print run from the original plates used for the video market?
Could there be high quality reprints/bootlegs?
How *exactly* do we distinguish between different print runs?
What if one is a fake?
How do we spot modern high quality reprints from internet auction photos?
Etc...
could be easily applied to other posters.
Great summary, Dr. Caul. Y'all have provided a wealth of knowledge on this topic not only for Blade Runner one sheets, but also, as you mentioned, for other titles. thumbup
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Well that didn't last long... it was just posted this morning.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blade-Runner-PRINTER-PROOF-1982-28x42-ART-ONLY-100-Original-Movie-Poster-/300674595893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46019a3c35#ht_607wt_1165
Wow. No wonder why that didn't last long. It's a real beaut.
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Well, if Dan is going to use the timing of this thread, which he is obviously reading, to hawk his wares, then he should pony up some info...
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Well, if Dan is going to use the timing of this thread, which he is obviously reading, to hawk his wares, then he should pony up some info...
Indeed...
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it's weird.......he has been "leaving" the poster hobby for about 7 years now.
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it's weird.......he has been "leaving" the poster hobby for about 7 years now.
Takes a long time to sell off that collection.
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that would be true....but he keeps buying posters.
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that would be true....but he keeps buying posters.
It is an incurable addiction.
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It is an incurable addiction.
That it is!
Luckily there is an endless supply.
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Now we are cookin' with GASOLINE!
On the left is an image of my studio issue bootleg (click here for the big version (http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6079/bladerunnerstudiov2boot.jpg))... on the right is a rolled studio issue from Cinemasterpieces (click here for the big version (http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/92010a/bladeaug10.jpg)). Notice any differences?
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6079/bladerunnerstudiov2boot.jpg) (http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8229/bladeaug10.jpg)
Even in these small pictures this bootleg seems like an easy one to avoid. You should be able to spot it in eBay auctions as well. You can definitely tell that the bootleg didn't capture the fine detail. The crushed the contrast and detail is missing pretty much everywhere -- in her jacket, at the bottom of his gun, on the side of face, in the smoke, the underside of the car, in the rooftops on the middle right, etc... And to top it all off the credits are blurry and the title is too red. I know there could still be small difference do the photos being taken by different people, but I would trust MPGrading not the crush the detail like this. Their photos are white balance and color calibrated. I say case closed on being able to spot the bootleg.
I love it when a plan comes together :D
By the way, MPGrading said they have recieved at least 3 of these studio issue bootlegs now (all exactly the same). They have only authenticated one BR, my NSS v3.
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Dave's doesn't have creases? And SJP is missing...
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Actually if you look at the tree Dave's looks much sharper...
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"You can definitely tell that the bootleg didn't capture the fine detail"
I have been lucky enough to see lots of bootlegs side by side with known originals, and this is almost always true, because they were almost always created from scans of the originals themselves, and fine quality is lost. Always look at areas that have fine detail (like a solid area that fades gently to another color) and you can almost always see something that doesn't look "right" in the bootleg.
And of course, there is the paper quality. I have poor vision and hearing, but I have a great sense of touch, and I have felt tens of thousands of posters. Paper changed between the 1970s and 1990s (as Todd has confirmed) and I can almost always easily tell the difference by touching both, even with my eyes closed.
Bruce
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The text thickness on the "LADD Company" is much more uniform and thicker on Dave's too...
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You can't make out the definition in the architectural features of the columns. Damn Matt I thought this was going to be hard...
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You can't make out the definition in the architectural features of the columns. Damn Matt I thought this was going to be hard...
Well IT WILL be hard on eBay because very rarely do sellers actually post good enough quality photos.
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Thanks for posting those Matt - this is exactly what I was trying to accomplish in starting this thread.
I also noticed something amazing on your bootleg - it looks like there is a hair on Sean Young's chin!
Could this be another scenario like the Hairy Belt Leia Star Wars bootlegs?!
Or it could just be a defect in the photo...hmmm... ;)
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Well IT WILL be hard on eBay because very rarely do sellers actually post good enough quality photos.
Don't buy from those people :)
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Don't buy from those people :)
Of course very sound advice there Ves (as always)
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...
I doubted anyone remembered me.....found this forum yesterday...and noticed that perhaps there were a few who did.
I see some of the usual suspects....great to see some of you...those of you who I have been contact on and off over the years sharing information and the love of the hobby.
With that being said...yes I left the mainstream...off the grid for the most part...and I will probably remain this way...
I have looked over this forum and I see some very clever people here who continue to "do their homework"...and I am glad to see that my legacy lives on to try and unearth the truth about movie posters....good for you guys!
Keep it up!!
It was kind of neat scrolling over a few of your past threads...looking at how you came about the conclusions that you did...or didn't...
Some of the printings I had wondered about myself as well..like a trip down memory lane...
Anyway take care and I guess I will see you around from time-to-time.
D
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welcome1 aboard, Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Surely you don't miss being part of the Canadian Poster terrorists? ;)
Ari
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Hi Dan - good to see you here. Can you comment at all on this Blade Runner discussion?
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welcome1 aboard, Dan.
Welcome. Stay long and post often.
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Hi Dan - good to see you here. Can you comment at all on this Blade Runner discussion?
What he said...
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I'm curious about the authentication book he promised he was writing. Whatever happened to that? He mentioned it twice, once about 3 years ago and another time about 5 or 6 years ago.
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What is your interest in a book about Authenticating Movie Posters Dave when you don't collect them?
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Who says I don't collect them? What an absurd comment. I've been a collector since the 70's.
Now why don't you answer the question. Whatever happened to the book you promised on more than one occasion? Just curious. Thanks.
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Earlier in this thread an international rolled one sheet was shown from ebay. The guy tried to sell it himself locally (and failed) so he sent it to us. We now have it listed with a large photo if you all want to use it for reference. It has a very slight trim on the right side.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190652867414 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190652867414)
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Well, as usual, monkey see, monkey want to buy, monkey try to resist, but monkey fail again. I ended up ordering the "Odd NSS" rolled from MoviePosterZone (http://www.ebay.com/itm/150775428292). Very curious to see how this turns out. I might ship it off to MP Grading, because it does indeed seem too good to be true, although every poster I've received from MPZ certainly appears to be legit....
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade2.jpg)
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Well, as usual, monkey see, monkey want to buy, monkey try to resist, but monkey fail again.
So weird that you do this... But to each his own.
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Well, as usual, monkey see, monkey want to buy, monkey try to resist, but monkey fail again. I ended up ordering the "Odd NSS" rolled from MoviePosterZone (http://www.ebay.com/itm/150775428292). Very curious to see how this turns out. I might ship it off to MP Grading, because it does indeed seem too good to be true, although every poster I've received from MPZ certainly appears to be legit....
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade2.jpg)
Been watching that one for a while Mel. And if it turns out to be legit, not a bad deal for a rolled OS.
Good luck and let us know when you are back from "spring hiatus" ;)
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So the rolled "Odd NSS" poster from MoviePosterZone.com showed up.
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/1.jpg)
It's exactly 27x41.
The "NSS tag" at the bottom is somewhat fuzzy but easily legible:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/2.jpg)
The paper feels unusual to me - somewhat waxy - hard to describe.
It appears to exactly match the poster that Dave says came "straight from a former employee of Continental Litho. in Cleveland. He saved a few posters that he liked as they came off the press." (http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg)
I downloaded all the extra-large images from Heritage of this poster and compared them again, especially the cropping.
On mine I noticed you can distinctly see two lights at the very edge of the left border in the middle. You can also see those two lights on Dave's "Odd NSS" rolled poster. Pics of the lights from my poster:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/3a.jpg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/3b.jpg)
These lights are cropped on the great majority of posters on HA.com. Typically you can only see a bit of one light:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/Folded.png)
On the 30x40, there is some extra space to the left of those two lights:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/30s.jpeg)
On mine there is a printing defect that extends to the back:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/4.jpg)
Finally, I really can't spot any "loss of detail" on mine compared to the others I examined.
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Appreciate this Mel - but now we need to figure out what it all means ;) !
Do you think you will send it off to MPG?
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Appreciate this Mel - but now we need to figure out what it all means ;) !
Do you think you will send it off to MPG?
"What it all means"? Beyond my ken. It's certainly not a "MovieGoods" cheapie reprint, which are a joke. (They're all 27x40 and all the text printing - even large text - is preposterously fuzzy.) Also, I take Dave at his word that his rolled "Odd NSS" copy came straight from Continental Litho (http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg)and this poster exactly matches that copy, which is compelling evidence it is the real deal. Also, a bootlegger probably would not bootleg this version since it has the small NSS tag printing, which is very tiny and very difficult to replicate.
On the other hand the paper on the back seems very white for its age and feels oddly "waxy." The seller (MoviePosterZone) just happens to have "endless rolls" of The Thing, Blade Runner, and Pulp Fiction 2-3 decades after these movies disappeared from theaters. All three of these posters are known to have been bootlegged on non-alkaline paper from Japan.
Anyway I'm checking on the price of the testing. The site says $150, which is too much.
Looks pretty good on the ol' wall:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/Framed.jpg)
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That is all well and good, but, your leaving us for your Spring break only lasted 6 days. A bloody Blade Runner poster isn't worth coming back for!... Get back out there and enjoy the weather! ;)
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That is all well and good, but, your leaving us for your Spring break only lasted 6 days. A bloody Blade Runner poster isn't worth coming back for!... Get back out there and enjoy the weather! ;)
Good plan. Of course, thanks to global warming, winter in effect was spring and now summer has started. It's 81 degrees Fahrenheit (27 degrees Celsius) in early March!
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Good plan. Of course, thanks to global warming, winter in effect was spring and now summer has started. It's 81 degrees Fahrenheit (27 degrees Celsius) in early March!
It is that warm even up here in the frozen north of Wisconsin. We have broken record highs every day this week. Supposed to be 83F today.
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(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/Framed.jpg)
I just noticed - on your poster, is the 'ORI' in the 'Original Music Composed by Vangelis' credit noticeably different than the rest of the credits? On my 30x40 (and on all of the other ones that I've seen), the ORI is darker and thinner than the rest of the credit block, but I am not seeing this on other 'real' BR one sheets.
Is it just the glare or is your actually darker/thinner?
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The 30x40 and all the one sheet NSS posters (including mine and the theater-used poster shown below) that I checked have this fading but none of the studio posters (no NSS paragraph) that I checked have the fading:
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/fading-30.jpeg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/Faded1.jpg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/Blade/Not-faded-studio.jpeg)
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Mel,
You will know what I mean......
How does it smell ?
Stew
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I was looking at Dave's folded NSS and you couldn't tell from the pictures...
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Well I finally bit the bullet and bought a folded US Blade Runner one sheet.
Just had a chance to examine it and it adds even more mystery to the discussion!
It measures 27x41 so that's good but the odd thing is it appears to be the "Regular NSS Version" until you look closer.
Unfortunately, I could not capture these points in my photos but:
1) In the lower left it says "Printed in USA" in ghostly grey (not white) which is hard to see unless you move in the light - the Regular NSS should not have this?
2) In the middle it has the NSS Paragraph plus the GAU union logo (but the logo is somewhat faint and incomplete but is there in white printing). The NSS paragraph is NOT blurry to my eyes.
3) In the lower right the same thing as with the lower left is going on! It has "Blade Runner 820007" in white and even. Then above the "820007" in faint grey there is "NSS 820007" just like with the faint "Printed in USA" in the lower left.
The "ghostly grey" as I am calling it resembles the discoloured grey in the "ORI" of "Original" Jason noted...
It mostly resembles the "Odd NSS Version" BUT the major difference is that it does not have the "NSS 820007" printed in white (only the "Blade Runner 820007") with "NSS 820007" above in the ghostly grey (as well as the Printed in USA" in the left in the same ghostly grey).
So anyone with a folded Regular NSS one sheet care to take a CLOSER look at these areas and report back? Pretty please? ;)
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Ok the last pic is the best I can do (you can make out a grey smudge in the lower left - well at least on my monitor you can)
(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr156/Assgoblin/IMG_7207edit.jpg)
(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr156/Assgoblin/IMG_7206edit.jpg)
(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr156/Assgoblin/IMG_7206edit2.jpg)
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(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr156/Assgoblin/IMG_7206edit2-1.jpg)
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I can (just) see it. ;) but can't help. Never had one.
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You have a Regular NSS folded. We need to correct the authentications.
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You have a Regular NSS folded. We need to correct the authentications.
How are you certain Mel? I am not doubting it - I have just never encountered someone noting the "ghostly grey" text I am referring too...
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How are you certain Mel? I am not doubting it - I have just never encountered someone noting the "ghostly grey" text I am referring too...
The "Printed in USA" is probably just hard to see on most regular NSS's.
The "fuzzy text" talk was just wrong. It's not really fuzzy on my "rolled odd NSS" either.
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I guess this thread confirms that I have the real thing.
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z426/rudylaleh/BladeRunner-Front.jpg)
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z426/rudylaleh/BladeRunner-NSS_820007.jpg)
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z426/rudylaleh/BladeRunner-LeftSide.jpg)
(http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z426/rudylaleh/BladeRunner-CenterNSSinfo.jpg)
woohoo
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Just recently was gifted a rolled NSS (V3) Blade Runner, purchased from a Canadian source.
Read this entire thread and everything seems consistent with what I observe, including the size (it's actually slightly over 27x41" on both ends), slightly odd paper (hard to describe) and slightly fuzzy text at the bottom. My first impression was "fake."
I contacted the seller and he told me he's sold three of these V3 rolled NSS, all owned since the 80s. Two he sold to another very well known major dealer who has since re-listed/re-sold them. That seller still has one for sale now. So I'm assuming they're real.
Hate to revive something like this this from the dead but found this thread really helped me out over the past two weeks when I've been trying to authenticate this. Thanks to all the authorities like Matt, Bruce, Dave et al who posted here.
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Hi JCM, I think it's possible to be both reprint and from the 1980s. So, he could be telling the truth and you still have a reprint in your hands. Okie
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Any thoughts on the authenticity of this poster? This seems to be a reputable seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLADE-RUNNER-BLADERUNNER-HARRISON-FORD-RIDLEY-SCOTT-1982-1SHEET-NEAR-MINT-ROLLED/163967137071
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Any thoughts on the authenticity of this poster? This seems to be a reputable seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BLADE-RUNNER-BLADERUNNER-HARRISON-FORD-RIDLEY-SCOTT-1982-1SHEET-NEAR-MINT-ROLLED/163967137071
Hi Mitch and welcome to the forum. I don't know enough about BR one sheets to confidently answer (I've always been nervous about them, so acquired a 30 x 40" instead), but other members agree that the seller has a good reputation if that is any comfort (feedback here - http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,14483.msg244945.html#msg244945).
Has reading through this thread made things clearer or do you have specific doubts? Hopefully someone with more expertise can offer an opinion.
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Thanks Tob, I appreciate the feedback reference.
This thread and a page from Movie Poster Collectors are all I had to go on. (http://www.moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Blade_Runner.html)
My 17 year old son *LOVES* the film and has watched it countless times. I thought that an original poster would be something he would appreciate now and later in life. I solicited feedback in case somebody here might know/see something I didn't. The feedback makes me feel much better as this is a v2 and there was a note that counterfeits/bootlegs exist.
I pulled the trigger and bought the poster from the seller's website instead of eBay.
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Dont know anything about the seller, but the price tag seems a little high for me. Is this poster really worth that much? Did you manage to get it for less. Then again, I don’t really follow the market, so I don’t know. For that price, the poster should be in pristine condition.
T