All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Authentication => Topic started by: Dread_Pirate_Mel on August 30, 2011, 07:58:54 PM
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A few months I purchased a set of double-sided Black Swan International Art Deco posters from a seller in Ireland for $200. I'm confident those posters are original for a number of reasons, including (1) the seller quickly ran out of stock and (2) they show no indicia of being repros (text sharp & clear, etc).
The supply of these posters has basically run out and only the questionable sellers have them. I bought a Black Swan poster from Tom Loce (tloceposters) to compare mine and his. Sure enough, his is a fake reprint, even though it advertised as an original.
The below pics are self-explanatory. The digital repro exhibits typical fuzzy text, is slightly cropped at the top, and is slightly short horizontally. The colors are also noticeably different - brighter/lighter/more orange on the repro, darker (especially red and black) on original.
A comparison with an original was not necessary. By looking at the small text, any member of this forum would have instantly recognized that Loce's is a reprint.
These pictures are large (1500H x 900V), so max your window size to view.
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-0A.jpg)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-1A.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-1B.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-1C.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-2A.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-2B.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-3A.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-3B.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-3C.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-4.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-4A.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-4B.JPG)
(http://posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-BS/Black-Swan-5.JPG)
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Another reason for EVERYONE on this forum to STAY AWAY from TOM LOCE.
The guy is a charlatan and a thief.
T
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Not my thing but nice and helpful work Mel.
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No way! It will be smaller and there will be noticeable quality difference in paper and perhaps image sharpness...
Are you gonna send it back? One question I have is that the repro seems to have more image than the DS. The moon is bigger, etc. What would be interesting is to measure from a single point on the man to three or four star and see if the measurements are the same. It may be that he used an image like this one:
(http://cdn1.lostateminor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/black-swan-poster.jpg)
Or that he stretched it. The most interesting thing is that the DS trimmed some of the original image.... Why?
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Good catch, Charlie. Yeah, Loce's "moon" is all screwy, it's been stretched somehow.
By the way, mine is exactly the same as the one sold by Heritage a couple of months ago (http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7040&lotNo=83799) for crazy $$$$:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/BS.jpg)
On the Heritage image, you can see the same cropping on the upper left - just a little black space exposed:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/Top.jpg)
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To me, whoever bought it at that price is an ABSOLUTE MORON!
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To me, whoever bought it at that price is an ABSOLUTE MORON!
Maybe it was Portman's baby daddy?
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To me, whoever bought it at that price is an ABSOLUTE MORON!
Who also happens to be very wealthy...
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So I left appropriate feedback:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/Feed.jpg)
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Good on you. For blatant fraud or stupidity more negs should go straight out. It takes 100 times longer to rectify the situation, than it took to purchase it - time I don't have. eg Work through the issues by convoluted emails, repacking it, driving out to the post office to send it, go to post office to collect a replacement maybe, and then maybe having to pay for return postage. Dealers who think all is wonderful again if they allow a disgrunted buyer to return goods, is sadly mistaken.
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My objective is to stop the sale of these Black Swan posters or at least dissuade others from getting ripped off. Getting a refund is secondary.
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Great work on the authentication, Mel. What's the deal with your negative feedback left for Mr. Loce being removed from ebay?
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Yeah where the hell is your feedback????
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Who also happens to be very wealthy...
Rich people are usually extremely cheap and know what to buy and how to invest their money. No, this buyer is an idiot.
T
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As you will remember, Mel, he will likely threaten to sue you for libel. I'm sure you'll be able to handle that better than I could.
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It's bullshit. The guy is a nobody. He has no power whatsoever. Plus, the entire community can vouch that he's a crook. Plus, Mel is a lawyer.
T
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As you will remember, Mel, he will likely threaten to sue you for libel. I'm sure you'll be able to handle that better than I could.
Anthony, don't worry about it. A true statement is never libel. I can handle anything he can throw at me.
I'm checking out why it was removed. So far, I know that Loce called and had it removed for being "inappropriate."
Clearly, Ebay is going to side with a big $$$ seller, but we'll see what I can do.
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Anthony, don't worry about it. A true statement is never libel. I can handle anything he can throw at me.
I'm checking out why it was removed. So far, I know that Loce called and had it removed for being "inappropriate."
Clearly, Ebay is going to side with a big $$$ seller, but we'll see what I can do.
I fail to see anything wrong with the feedback you left.
ebay shows us what they really are in pulling your feedback. I think we should take them at their word. They are scum.
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I called Ebay about it and they are investigating why the feedback was removed. I'll let you know something as soon as I know something.
It was appropriate and factually correct.
I've also contacted some of the buyers of the Black Swans to let them know they may have purchased fakes, so things are going to get hot.
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thumbup pcorn
You go boy!
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Mel, you're a champ!
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Don't forget about the Inception authentication you did, Mel. Double your evidence, double your argument! See, I could be a lawyer! Law works that way, right?
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It is incredible how many items sold on ebay that are not authentic. Time for someone to find a luck dragon and conquer "the nothing!" :D Good luck on your quest, Skywalker...errr...Mel.
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It is incredible how many items sold on ebay that are not authentic. Time for someone to find a luck dragon and conquer "the nothing!" :D Good luck on your quest, Skywalker...errr...Mel.
Quest?
YOU HAVE MY SWORD.
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Well, guys, I need more than luck. The only way to prove he's selling fakes is to buy one. I blew $45 getting that Black Swan and probably will never get it back. To help, you'll have to buy one of them and hit him with negative feedback IF it is fake. It's obvious all his Black Swan single-sided posters are fake. The rest, I don't know...
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Anyone else wonder how many times loce and his repro buddies the brads and ricks of the poster world have had similar negative feedback removed just cause they asked?
Feedback only counts if we like it?
Stay classy ebay!
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Anyone else wonder how many times loce and his repro buddies the brads and ricks of the poster world have had similar negative feedback removed just cause they asked
No, they're not leaving negative feedback b/c they're getting refunded "no questions asked." In effect, they're being bribed to stay quiet.
One of the people I wrote about the Black Swan fakes has already informed me that he immediately filed a Paypal dispute over four Black Swan posters and Tom Loce immediately agreed to refund.
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Well, guys, I need more than luck. The only way to prove he's selling fakes is to buy one. I blew $45 getting that Black Swan and probably will never get it back. To help, you'll have to buy one of them and hit him with negative feedback IF it is fake. It's obvious all his Black Swan single-sided posters are fake. The rest, I don't know...
Since Falcor may not be the best option, the character pictured below is probably the second best.
(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/NeoLoco80/130512960835.jpg)
Seriously bro, just file a PayPal claim and (most likely) get a refund, and if people want to figure out how to tell what's legit from what's not, trustworthy people to buy from, etc. then they can get the information to from joints like this. My $0.02.
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(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3050/65597856.png)
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Seriously bro, just file a PayPal claim and (most likely) get a refund, and if people want to figure out how to tell what's legit from what's not, trustworthy people to buy from, etc. then they can get the information to from joints like this. My $0.02.
The problem is that 99% of casual buyers will never go to sites like this and will never know they have fakes unless and until they try to consign them or resell them to a knowledgeable collector. By then, it's far too late.
That's how Tom Loce has survived so long in this hobby. Some, perhaps most, of his posters are legit. But he sells also tons of reprints to casual buyers that he labels as "originals." The relatively few who realize they've been ripped off and who complain within 45 days get instant refunds. Once the 45 day Paypal limit passes, they have no recourse.
A few negative feedbacks will put a stop to the sales of the Black Swans for sure, although it won't solve the larger problem.
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So to recap... you were given a refund and your negative feedback was removed? Could you opt to keep the poster and keep the feedback (not that you would)?
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Here's a thought.
Could you relist the poster on ebay with the title "Fake Poster sold as original by tloce" and a high BIN price?
Probably get yanked as malicious, but perhaps with some thought it could be worded to be acceptable. Put a pointer to your analysis in your description.
I'd be willing to contribute to the listing fees
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Here's a thought.
Could you relist the poster on ebay with the title "Fake Poster sold as original by tloce" and a high BIN price?
Probably get yanked as malicious, but perhaps with some thought it could be worded to be acceptable. Put a pointer to your analysis in your description.
I'd be willing to contribute to the listing fees
That is a hilarious idea.
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Here's a thought.
Could you relist the poster on ebay with the title "Fake Poster sold as original by tloce" and a high BIN price?
Probably get yanked as malicious, but perhaps with some thought it could be worded to be acceptable. Put a pointer to your analysis in your description.
I'd be willing to contribute to the listing fees
He deserves that but that would only last a week. Gotta win the war not just a temporary battle....
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He deserves that but that would only last a week. Gotta win the war not just a temporary battle....
Haven't I seen ones with a high BIN price and a longer sales period? Some seem to stay up forever.
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Added a Black Swan authentication (http://moviepostercollectors.com/MPC_Authentication_Black_Swan.html) to moviepostercollectors.com (http://www.moviepostercollectors.com).
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The thing that amazes me about these fake sellers is that they DON'T EVEN TRY to make good fakes. They just take a quick picture of the poster (or blow up an image) and print it out. So every repro has fuzzy text that any knowledgeable collector can spot in three seconds and it's not necessary to have an original with which to compare it. They don't even try to recreate the text in Photoshop, which is not that difficult.
Obviously, they're just trying to sell to naive or casual collectors. The good news is that repros are just not a major threat to the hobby.
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Okay, so someone help me to understand more. The desireable one sheets were produced by La Boca a London based design company and produced in limited quantity to be given to whom? They are not theatre used are they? According to some research, they were not made to be sold to the general public according to the La Boca website. http://laboca.co.uk/blog/2010/10/black-swan-darren-aronofsky-2010/
Now, my big time question is, are they not suppose to be DS? Bruce has two up right now that are not? Does that mean that they were produced both ways? Seems odd, that a limited run would not be all the same.
Any insights?
Brian
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From the web, here is one account about the poster:
Daniel says:
March 21, 2011 at 11:03 am
I own a 100% original, pristine, 1st print of the 3rd poster, signed in silver by Darren Aronofsky himself. The poster is in fantastic quality and is 60×100 cm , so very large, made in a tough, sturdy paper.
Aronofsky signed a handful of these special posters for 20th Century Fox Studios and one of them was aquired by a the editors of a website called Filmz.dk, and imported all the way from the States to Denmark, where I live, and offered it as 1st price in their Black Swan contest. I contacted the editor from Filmz and had confirmed that the signature was authentic.
I contacted the winner and learned that he was only after winning the tickets included, so I bought the poster from him for basically nothing. I now have it framed in glas and a beautiful wodden frame for preservation.
I feel like the luckiest person on earth waking up to look at it every morning. Aronofsky is my favorite director and Black Swan and The Fountain are my 3rd and 1st most favorite films of all time.
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Okay, so someone help me to understand more. The desireable one sheets were produced by La Boca a London based design company and produced in limited quantity to be given to whom? They are not theatre used are they? According to some research, they were not made to be sold to the general public according to the La Boca website. http://laboca.co.uk/blog/2010/10/black-swan-darren-aronofsky-2010/
Now, my big time question is, are they not suppose to be DS? Bruce has two up right now that are not? Does that mean that they were produced both ways? Seems odd, that a limited run would not be all the same.
Any insights?
Brian
Well what I took away from this is that there are two types: limited edition and those that run with the regular campaign. "These will run alongside the theatrical campaign and I believe will be also be available as a limited edition set, printed on nice un-coated stock." The indication that they would not be for sale doesn't mean they didn't make it to theaters as cinema movie posters are not for sale.
I take away that there are the ones from the theater campaign (DS like Mel's and Mine) and a limited edition run on card stock or "uncoated stock" Bruces appear to be uncoated we may need to have him verify if they are on card stock or thicker stock.
I also sent an e-mail to Debut Art (La Boca representatives) for more information...
-Charlie
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From La Boca Blog:
http://laboca.co.uk/blog/2010/12/black-swan-shop/ (http://laboca.co.uk/blog/2010/12/black-swan-shop/)
Scot Bendall says:
January 6, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Hello everyone – thanks very much for all the comments. We’re receiving a large number of requests inquiring where prints can be purchased – unfortunately, we’re told the full-size posters will not be available to buy and that they’re only being used for promotions and displays in cinemas. If we hear of any change to this we will post it up on here.
Scot Bendall says:
February 3, 2011 at 1:19 am
Hi Tony,
Sorry to hear you didn’t receive prints of good quality, but thanks for posting your experience here. I can say that as far as we know, there are unfortunately no plans to retail the original full-size posters anywhere (sorry), they are just being used in cinemas and as promo items – any unofficial sites offering them for sale will most likely just have reproductions (without quality control!). Please be careful to find out when buying if the posters are originals or not. There are also some examples to be found on eBay, a few genuine, but most appear to be reproductions.
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Check this out! Official Fox merchandise? http://foxshop.seenon.com/index.php?v=searchlight_films_black-swan&nvbar=Shows:Black+Swan%29.. (http://foxshop.seenon.com/index.php?v=searchlight_films_black-swan&nvbar=Shows:Black+Swan%29..)
But no description on size?
From the same La Boca blog..
Nikesh Patel says:
February 16, 2011 at 5:20 pm
The posters are now on the Fox Store (http://foxshop.seenon.com/index.php?v=searchlight_films_black-swan&nvbar=Shows:Black+Swan)... but they don’t ship to the UK!!
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Boy, if those are cinema size, then what? Legit studio versions with an endless supply at $19.95..........
Brian
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The commercial posters lack credits and are easily distinguishable even if they are full-size, which I doubt they are.
There are some heavy card stock posters floating around on EBay.
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Boy, if those are cinema size, then what? Legit studio versions with an endless supply at $19.95..........
Not about this poster, but you kind of have to wonder. We probably could take a look at our inner OCD child when we are making multi hundred dollar decisions based on a small flyspec on a piece of paper.
The obsession in this group on perfect paper for modern movies really makes me wonder. The pieces you are buying probably never hung in a theater, as they would be less than perfect. Making a lot of determinations on small differences, which seems silly given that multiple printers are often involved in producing legitimate posters, that there are often differences that creep in during a print run even from a single source, and that extremely high quality scans are becoming more and more available.
We are starting to hit the stops where we are likely accepting reprints as legit and just as likely damning legitimate paper as bootlegs. Since nobody but Bruce and Grey (and possibly Rich) make much money on this stuff, it seems way obsessive to me. But then, for a lot of these reasons, I tend to collect older NSS stuff.
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The most recent posts seem to be much ado about nothing.
The commercial versions are instantly distinguishable because they lack credits (top commercial, bottom real).
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/Screenshot2011-09-13at84645AM.jpg)
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/BlackSwan2010DSRspecialinternational1SverA1.jpg)
The digital repros that Tloce is pumping out have obviously fuzzy text.
It appears that these "heavy stock" posters sold by Posteritati are legit as well:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/Heavy.jpg)
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It appears that these "heavy stock" posters sold by Posteritati are legit as well:
I guess my question would be legit as "what." These heavy stock SS posters do not seem to be cinema used, but rather intended as studio handouts. According to the La Boca they made both for cinema and as studio handouts. Would that not be similar to the Sony "heavy" stock posters that are relatively disregarded by movie collectors. Mel you know more about posters than I ever will, but I am finding these SS posters less and less desireable when the nature of these posters seems to be more of a graphic print. It will be DS or nothing for me.
Brian
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Official E-mail from La Boca; This clears a lot up.... (you non-believers will be biting your tongue in a few seconds)
Hello Charles,
Thanks for getting in touch regarding info on the Black Swan posters.
Unfortunately, as this film was a wide international release it's almost impossible to give you any sort of hard facts I'm afraid.
From what I've been told, there were two print runs. One a very limited run (I believe 1000 copies) which were printed on quite a beautiful, textured/uncoated paper (size appx 70cmX100cm) - these were the 'art' copies and were solely used as promotional items/gifts/prizes - I believe a large number of these were also signed. These are not double-sided, but the quality of both paper and printing is very high. Then, the other run consisted of several thousand 70X100 posters which were used in cinemas and as competition prizes world-wide. These are the 'double-sided' variety and the paper is more silky/glossy - but again printing quality is good. There was also a set of landscape Quads printed as you mention, these were for use in the UK/Ireland as cinemas there mainly accommodate this size. I'm sorry, but I don't know quantities on these. There was also a set of official postcards manufactured on quite a nice un-coated paper which arrived in a black card wallet
All of these have never been made available to buy, so the only way to purchase these I believe, is through specialist dealers who acquire them privately or reputable individuals on eBay etc.
This year Fox have also started selling official replica posters, but I believe they are smaller than the originals and not on the double-sided paper. I haven't seen these so I can't tell you for sure.
We know there are large numbers of fakes being sold on eBay (I would say the vast majority on there). We have many reports of people telling us they have received poor quality prints from eBay. These are almost certainly fakes/reproductions. As the original posters have never been made available for purchase, no seller will ever have a large number of them I don't think. I'd recommend to report anyone suspected of selling fakes to eBay.
Sorry, I don't have any more knowledge that this - but I hope it's of some use.
All the best
La Boca Ltd.
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231 Portobello Road, London W11 1LT
e: eatme [at] laboca.co.uk
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http://www.laboca.co.uk
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Holy Cow, what an awesome reply!!!! Great work Charlie.... clap
Brian
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Went ahead found and bought the postcards:
(http://www.abideposters.com/apf_junk/bspc.jpg)
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Holy Cow, what an awesome reply!!!! Great work Charlie.... clap
Brian
Think we should tell Bruce's people that his are most likely not theater used?
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Official E-mail from La Boca; This clears a lot up.... (you non-believers will be biting your tongue in a few seconds)
Good info but my DS one sheets are 27x40 and are not metric-sized. What about yours?
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Good info but my DS one sheets are 27x40 and are not metric-sized. What about yours?
100 centimeters = 39.3700787 inches
70 centimeters = 27.5590551 inches
Yours must be fakes (kiddin) :o wynk; mine are ~39.5" x 27"
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OK I'll pull it out completely; I never do very well measuring while its in the cabinet...
And I don't think the 70x100 is a big deal. Anyone ever tell you your a bit picky... :P
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OK I'll pull it out completely; I never do very well measuring while its in the cabinet...
And I don't think the 70x100 is a big deal. Anyone ever tell you your a bit picky... :P
Yep they are 27" x 40" give or take an 1/8". The in cabinet error is 1/2".. :)
I would think that if they were manufactured in the UK they would basic one-sheet measurements to fit the backlit frames; I would say we are ok here. I am saying British posters and the standard 1-sheets are 27x40. Maybe the prints are 70cm x 100cm?
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I'm not being nit-picky. The international B1 size is 707mm × 1000mm. (The Japan B1 size is 728mm × 1030m). You occasionally see that size in international one sheets, especially modern Australian one sheets.
I suspect he was just estimating and none were printed in metric size.
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OK I'll pull it out completely..
You know I stumbled a bit and almost lost my balance while trying to put the poster up on the board; ended up laying the poster on the floor. My head was screaming just my fucking luck! Stupid studio lights...
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I got a chance to pull these out. They ARE the heavy stock versions and are 100% legit. I have amended the auctions to reflect this, and to add in the info about the fakes detailed here.
Thanks everyone for your help.
Bruce
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Hi everyone. Sorry to get this really old thread up again, but does anyone have an idea on the value of the original heavy stock (very thick/heavy paper quality) posters if you have all four?
I have been googling a lot and i can't find a lot of information on this.
I have the 4 originals lying behind my closet for a couple of years and I only just found out they might be worth a lot... or has the value decreased over the past years?
Thanks so much for your help.
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Hi everyone. Sorry to get this really old thread up again, but does anyone have an idea on the value of the original heavy stock (very thick/heavy paper quality) posters if you have all four?
I have been googling a lot and i can't find a lot of information on this.
I have the 4 originals lying behind my closet for a couple of years and I only just found out they might be worth a lot... or has the value decreased over the past years?
Thanks so much for your help.
welcome1 Zmeanie. You can check past auction results to see roughly what they go for. Here is the link to past auction results for Black Swan
http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/film_title/BLACK%2520SWAN%2520%2528%252710%2529/sort/17/archive.html
I hope that helps you figure out what they are worth.
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I think it depends on which way the wind is blowing. A set of the DS went for $1200 fairly recently
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/331057120851
But then I saw another set from the same seller go unsold at $300 a few weeks later.
If you're thinking of selling, I'd prob avoid ebay and go the consignment route (emovie, movieposterbid, cinemasterpieces, movieposter exchange), especially if they're the card stock versions where ebay shoppers may be wary of possible fakes.
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welcome1 Zmeanie. You can check past auction results to see roughly what they go for. Here is the link to past auction results for Black Swan
http://www.emovieposter.com/agallery/film_title/BLACK%2520SWAN%2520%2528%252710%2529/sort/17/archive.html
I hope that helps you figure out what they are worth.
Thank you! i have the feeling these are not the heavy thick paper ones for some reason... but i'll look deeper into all of 'em
I think it depends on which way the wind is blowing. A set of the DS went for $1200 fairly recently
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/331057120851
But then I saw another set from the same seller go unsold at $300 a few weeks later.
If you're thinking of selling, I'd prob avoid ebay and go the consignment route (emovie, movieposterbid, cinemasterpieces, movieposter exchange), especially if they're the card stock versions where ebay shoppers may be wary of possible fakes.
I'm sorry but i'm not very familiar with all of this. What do you mean by "the card stock versions"? that they are the heavy ones?
I was just wondering if this is something you should hold onto and that might increase in value over the years, or if i should sell this and hope to get a nice price out of it.
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^
Do you have pictures of them?? This would help determine what they are. Do the posters have the art deco look to them? Are they card stock or just paper?
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But then I saw another set from the same seller go unsold at $300 a few weeks later.
$300 with hidden reserve. The real price is the hidden reserve, of course.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-SWAN-RARE-US-SET-OF-4-TEASER-POSTERS-PORTMAN-LA-BOCA-ART-DECO-DANCE-/231175018644
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$300 with hidden reserve. The real price is the hidden reserve, of course.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-SWAN-RARE-US-SET-OF-4-TEASER-POSTERS-PORTMAN-LA-BOCA-ART-DECO-DANCE-/231175018644
This seller has been selling these since the film came out.
I don't know them but since there's only 1000 sets made i have doubts.
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^
Do you have pictures of them?? This would help determine what they are. Do the posters have the art deco look to them? Are they card stock or just paper?
i will try to upload some later tonight. i'm not sure what "card stock" means but i think it's card stock then and not just regular paper. It's very heavy thick paper that's a bit granular (if that's the correct English word). you can't easily make a roll out of it or fold them...
i know they're real.. i worked for the movie company back then and i ordered these myself to use as in theatre material.... we didn't order many sets because they were actually kind of expensive for being posters.