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Common Poster Subjects => Restoration => Topic started by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 07:10:53 PM

Title: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 07:10:53 PM
I am looking at a poster that is described (without pictures at the moment) as having "foxing" on the back that is not visible on the front of the poster. The poster isn't that old (1985) and I'm concerned that the foxing will either continue to develop (like mold) or eventually be visible on the front of the poster.

-How concerned should I be of the foxing spreading?
-If it continues to spread on the back, is there a chance it will eventually be visible on the front?
-Can foxing be treated and/or removed?
-Does anybody have another Back to the Future Daybill WITHOUT foxing on the back?
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CJ138 on April 05, 2011, 07:23:34 PM
WTF is foxing?
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 07:32:05 PM
Foxing is a term describing the age-related spots and browning seen on vintage paper documents such as books, postage stamps, certificates, and so forth. The name may derive from the fox-like reddish-brown color of the stains, or the rust chemical ferric oxide which may be involved. Paper so affected is said to be "foxed."

Two of the three BTTF daybills I have have some foxing issues.  The aussie paper of that period (early 80s) seems to be really susceptible to foxing for some reason.

I would not worry about it too much if it is mainly on the back of the poster although there is certainly the risk of it spreading over time.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 07:34:07 PM
Foxing is a term describing the age-related spots and browning seen on vintage paper documents such as books, postage stamps, certificates, and so forth. The name may derive from the fox-like reddish-brown color of the stains, or the rust chemical ferric oxide which may be involved. Paper so affected is said to be "foxed."

Two of the three BTTF daybills I have have some foxing issues.  The aussie paper of that period (early 80s) seems to be really susceptible to foxing for some reason.

I would not worry about it too much if it is mainly on the back of the poster although there is certainly the risk of it spreading over time.


It's funny that it seems so common on Back to the Future daybills. Between yours and the two I've found that's four of the five that have foxing on the back. How strange. I haven't seem reports of it on any other posters though. I've been looking for Raiders daybills lately and now I'm concerned to bid on anything because I don't want it to grow spots...
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on April 05, 2011, 07:36:00 PM
The fungi that produce the foxing marks must have a relative humidity of 75% or greater in order to live and flourish. Once in drier environments, the fungi die and no further growth will occur.

Jeff

Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 07:38:31 PM
One thing about Raiders and BTTF daybills is that there are literally thousands of them floating around so you should have no trouble finding one to your preference if you are patient..
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 07:39:21 PM
The fungi that produce the foxing marks must have a relative humidity of 75% or greater in order to live and flourish. Once in drier environments, the fungi die and no further growth will occur.

Jeff



That's quite comforting - Maine is not a humid state - but I thought foxing was caused by the oxidation of the iron in the paper or something?

One thing about Raiders and BTTF daybills is that there are literally thousands of them floating around so you should have no trouble finding one to your preference if you are patient..

I've seen tons of Raiders - they pop up every week - but only two Back to the Future. One has been on eBay for a long time because its 100+ dollars and the other has foxing marks. I don't think I really care too much though - as long as it doesn't hurt the front of the paper.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on April 05, 2011, 07:58:14 PM
That's quite comforting - Maine is not a humid state - but I thought foxing was caused by the oxidation of the iron in the paper or something?


Anthony...Partly right.. yes. The "Foxing" mildew or spore gets its name from the (F)errous (Ox)ide or the iron it is attracted to in the paper, usually chemical wood pulp, and all are activated by the same cause...relative humidity.

Jeff
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 08:03:02 PM
Anthony...Partly right.. yes. The "Foxing" mildew or spore gets its name from the (F)errous (Ox)ide or the iron it is attracted to in the paper, usually chemical wood pulp, and all are activated by the same cause...relative humidity.

Jeff

But once you remove the paper from the necessary climate for the foxing to grow, it will die and not continue to spread? So, for the sake of example, if I decided to put my poster in the freezer overnight the foxing would cease permanently, unless exposed to humidity in an open environment?
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 08:03:08 PM
I've seen tons of Raiders - they pop up every week - but only two Back to the Future.

Just wait until you realize there are actually two different styles of Raiders daybills!   hitself
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 08:04:46 PM
Just wait until you realize there are actually two different styles of Raiders daybills!   hitself

Oh God. What do you mean? There are auctions ending tomorrow that I've been watching. Do you mean two styles as in the '81 release Amsel and '82 release Struzan artwork?
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 08:05:15 PM
But once you remove the paper from the necessary climate for the foxing to grow, it will die and not continue to spread? So, for the sake of example, if I decided to put my poster in the freezer overnight the foxing would cease permanently, unless exposed to humidity in an open environment?

You'd probably have to run an experiment and if you do this one PLEASE take pictures ;)

I'd be concerned that once the foxing is present any fluctuations in humidity could cause spreading but it will likely be very slow (of particular concern is a folded poster where "virgin" parts come into contact with diseased, foxed parts)
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 08:06:46 PM
Oh God. What do you mean? There are auctions ending tomorrow that I've been watching. Do you mean two styles as in the '81 release Amsel and '82 release Struzan artwork?

No nothing that significant - the credit placement, overall colour and size of the daybills vary slightly - see this thread:

http://stylec.yuku.com/topic/8087/Daybill-Help-Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark


Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 08:07:33 PM
No nothing that significant the credit placement, overall colour and size of the daybills vary slightly - see this thread:

http://stylec.yuku.com/topic/8087/Daybill-Help-Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark




Thank you, I'll get right on it. If there are two versions I'll obviously have to research more carefully... Is one "better" than the other?

And if I ever make a postersicle, I'll be sure to take pictures. :P
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 08:09:45 PM
Thank you, I'll get right on it. If there are two versions I'll obviously have to research more carefully... Is one "better" than the other?

And if I ever make a postersicle, I'll be sure to take pictures. :P

I will hold you to that!

"Better" is just too subjective - but the Aussie poster gods have basically concluded that they are all original release and so I would base my purchase on the colour saturation that appeals to me and as well as the poster size - i.e. if you intend on framing it.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: 50s on April 05, 2011, 08:10:19 PM
Term foxing may have come from the color being similar to a fox fur (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-LmBBQ9mFnIJ:www.auduboninfo.net/articles/definitions-print%2520flaws-damage.htm+foxing+acidification+conservation+color+fur&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&source=www.google.com.au). Yet it is not agreed where the term came from.

I believe foxing can have a number of causes. I think foxing caused by fungi has a mottled appearance like this (http://www.art-conservation-sarasota.com/paper/rembrandt_etching/index.html). High humidity is definately a factor to avoid as Jeff says.

I think foxing can also be caused by the acidification process (http://www.rarebookrestoration.com/boxes/pages/deacidification.html), which looks like a more solid/consistant darkening. This is my take on foxing caused by acidification:
To slow down Foxing on folds/edges - avoid poster being exposured to sunlight and high humidity. (Moisture in the paper speeds up the acidification.) Fluctuations in temperature and humidity (as Chris mentions) increase the process of acidification. Edges are more prone to all these issues as the are more likely to be exposed to the atmosphere, than the middle of the poster.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 08:16:07 PM
I will hold you to that!

"Better" is just too subjective - but the Aussie poster gods have basically concluded that they are all original release and so I would base my purchase on the colour saturation that appeals to me and as well as the poster size - i.e. if you intend on framing it.

Thank you very much for the information. I'll have to check to see what size I would prefer... Ideally, I want all my daybills to be the same size (or as close as possible). The second version, the 28" one, is longer than typical right?

Term foxing may have come from the color being similar to a fox fur (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-LmBBQ9mFnIJ:www.auduboninfo.net/articles/definitions-print%2520flaws-damage.htm+foxing+acidification+conservation+color+fur&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&source=www.google.com.au). Yet it is not agreed where the term came from.

I believe foxing can have a number of causes. I think foxing caused by fungi has a mottled appearance like this (http://www.art-conservation-sarasota.com/paper/rembrandt_etching/index.html). High humidity is definately a factor to avoid as Jeff says.

I think foxing can also be caused by the acidification process (http://www.rarebookrestoration.com/boxes/pages/deacidification.html), which looks like a more solid/consistant darkening. This is my take on foxing caused by acidification:
To slow down Foxing on folds/edges - avoid poster being exposured to sunlight and high humidity. (Moisture in the paper speeds up the acidification.) Fluctuations in temperature and humidity (as Chris mentions) increase the process of acidification. Edges are more prone to all these issues as the are more likely to be exposed to the atmosphere, than the middle of the poster.

Thank you very much for this information. I read a few things quickly that stated foxing wasn't a mold and it was an inevitable deterioration. It was rather disheartening.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on April 05, 2011, 08:47:34 PM
Thank you very much for the information. I'll have to check to see what size I would prefer... Ideally, I want all my daybills to be the same size (or as close as possible). The second version, the 28" one, is longer than typical right?

Thank you very much for this information. I read a few things quickly that stated foxing wasn't a mold and it was an inevitable deterioration. It was rather disheartening.

Foxing is not inevitable. There is much paper (not posters) but historical documents that date back hundreds of years that have not succumbed to foxing. As Steve and Chris said.. it is about conditions in which the paper was kept, light, humidity, acidity, and chemical properties in the wood pulp that can all lead to potential spotting.

The causes of foxing are not well understood. One theory is that foxing is caused by a fungal growth on the paper. Another theory is that foxing is caused by the effect on certain papers of the oxidation of iron, copper, or other substances in the pulp or rag from which the paper was made. It is also possible that multiple factors are involved.



Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Disheveledamethyst on April 05, 2011, 08:54:56 PM
Foxing is not inevitable. There is much paper (not posters) but historical documents that date back hundreds of years that have not succumbed to foxing. As Steve and Chris said.. it is about conditions in which the paper was kept, light, humidity, acidity, and chemical properties in the wood pulp that can all lead to potential spotting.

The causes of foxing are not well understood. One theory is that foxing is caused by a fungal growth on the paper. Another theory is that foxing is caused by the effect on certain papers of the oxidation of iron, copper, or other substances in the pulp or rag from which the paper was made. It is also possible that multiple factors are involved.





But we can be certain the spots are not microscopic colonies of actual foxes? Good...

I'll just have to keep looking BTTF for now. I don't want to spend $100 on a daybill when I only paid $40 for the 1-Sheet.

Thank you everybody for all your information. :)
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CSM on April 05, 2011, 09:14:11 PM
But we can be certain the spots are not microscopic colonies of actual foxes?


It would be a much more romantic explanation...
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: brude on April 06, 2011, 02:25:33 AM
    The true cause of foxing...
                                            (http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/972f171c-7f98-4072-8134-c298b43efcdb.gif)
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: theartofmovieposters on May 06, 2011, 08:45:22 AM
I'm pretty sure my BTTF daybill is brown spot free...When I get a chance I will check.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: theartofmovieposters on May 06, 2011, 08:46:14 AM
Oh and in response to your question, if you keep it separated and mind how you store you, not too much to worry about here...
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on May 06, 2011, 04:33:15 PM
All this discussion of foxing makes me want to try and find this Aussie piece   ;).

The movie is brilliant. Davis' performance is brutally powerful. One of Wyler's best, as well.


(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q719/spitfire3992/4580171020A_zps61ba6287.jpg)


Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: theartofmovieposters on May 06, 2011, 10:05:35 PM
Oh that is beautiful!
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on April 16, 2016, 01:29:07 PM
Another good article, with more info on the foxing subject. With a masterpiece like this at danger of becoming 'foxed over,' its easy to see why scientists want to try and figure it all out:

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/leonardo-da-vinci-portrait-fungi-451514
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Tang Lung in Rome on April 17, 2016, 06:21:03 PM
WTF is foxing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6xzllOTCC8

 :P
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: CJ138 on April 17, 2016, 06:53:58 PM
Lol
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: BruceH on April 17, 2016, 07:11:01 PM
.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: movieposterodyssey on April 18, 2016, 02:21:12 AM
Sucks! Completely ruined my mini Octopussy standup.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Chris9000 on April 19, 2016, 03:40:29 PM

Interesting for sure. I've seen this, but never really new what it was other than a defect caused by aging and presumably exposure to some kind of element. Will a 'wash' in restoration neutralize and/or fix the discoloration?  Anything to be worried about spreading to other posters?
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on April 19, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
I find the whole discussion interesting too, Chris. Since there have always been discussions about it being more caused by iron in the paper, a mold, a combination of the 2.

I think the Da Vinci piece, because it is drawn, is of concern to scientists, too, since washing, buffering, bleaching could cause the image to literally wash away.

I've read where older movie posters (vs glossy modern, that seem to resist foxing) were treated successfully with a wash/buffer/bleach bath. It lessened or removed the rust colored spots and the paper overall was more pH-balanced, as well.

Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: movieposterodyssey on April 20, 2016, 01:24:11 AM
It will spread. Keep them away from anything else.
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Tang Lung in Rome on August 12, 2017, 11:29:24 PM
Nm
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: erik1925 on August 13, 2017, 12:37:51 PM
Nm

What does Nm mean?   dontknow.gif
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: mcfree on August 13, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
What does Nm mean?   dontknow.gif

"Nm" stands for in texting terms, "never mind".

I'll take a stab at this-
Though his heart was in the right place, Tang noticed after the fact that the YouTube video that he posted regarding the foxing is not watchable here in the US. Hence the, "Nm", (never mind).
Title: Re: How concerned should one be about "foxing"?
Post by: Tang Lung in Rome on August 13, 2017, 04:42:26 PM
I meant NM (no message) , it was about mould so my bad.