All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => The Dealer/Auction House/Seller/Buyer Round Table => Topic started by: erik1925 on December 05, 2015, 01:03:33 PM
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Why do auction houses / dealers who are auctioning posters that have been restored, repaired, linen or paper backed etc never mention the name of the restorer who did the work, especially if that dealer or auction house was the one who sent it off to be worked on (in the descriptions)?
In the descriptions, it is always written something like "...a talented restorer addressed the issues, touched up the fold lines and it now is presentable...."
If something has had work done to it, and it is being offered for auction, isnt knowing who did the work an important part of that poster's history? I think so, especially if a winning bidder has additional questions about said work, once the piece is in the new owner's hands.
And yes, all sellers receive items that have been backed prior to being consigned, so I'm not meaning those kinds of items, since, sometimes, the consignor may have bought that piece, already having been worked on, and doesnt know who performed the restoration, either.
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I agree, that when possible, such details should be included. If someone sends proof with their consignment, regarding who did the work, or if the auction house sent the work off, the item's description should include that info., IMO. It would also be good to have before/after photos, showing what work was done, etc.
Different people have different methods, and results are sometimes significantly different. Of course, some folks would pay more for something that was restored by a specific company, and some folks would pay less, or not even bid on something that was restored by a specific company.
I'm sure there are buyers who are skeptical to purchase something that has already been backed, as it could be like buying a wrecked car, that had shoddy work done to it from an infamous shop, and/or possibly "smoke and mirrors" to conceal some things.
Also, as you said, with the history of the piece. It's always nice to know as much as possible about something, especially when buying it.
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I just think it's as important as giving a pre- and post- restore description. Especially when an auction may contain a lot (or majority) of backed pieces.
To me, there is no reason this information need be kept secret, regardless of who that restorer is who did the work. :)
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the one time I sent a valuable poster out for restoration prior to selling, I noted that Mario Cueva had done it.
But unless I sent it out to get done, it's not possible for me to include such info
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the one time I sent a valuable poster out for restoration prior to selling, I noted that Mario Cueva had done it.
But unless I sent it out to get done, it's not possible for me to include such info
I recall it well, Rich... the HS for The Searchers, right?
And the before and after pix showed a wonderful transformation of that piece.
Does it not make sense to you, too, if a seller/dealer/auctioneer knows who did the work on a piece they are offering (let alone sent it out themsleves), that that bit of info should be included in the item's description, rather than just mentioning "an (unnamed) restorer dealt with a poster's various issues and it now looks wonderful?"
I wish it was the common practice, on any and all items.. rarer/pricier or not.
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sure it would make sense, but here was the issue in comics:
I think a document should be attached to the piece (not ATTACHED of course) explaining what was done & processes used.
Most restorers are against this as it reveals their trade and they don't want to create competitors
Personally, I think backing etc is for "restoration purposes only to severely damaged posters"
anything else to me is 'poster abuse'.
so what it has a tear or a few. so what it has 'folds'..
think of the poster like a woman, if she has a few creases, are you going to tell her about it?
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Thanks again, Rich.
Makes sense.. even if, as you said, a certificate or small document is/was included with a restored piece, stating what and, importantly, WHO did the work.
To me, there's no reason a winning bidder should have to contact a seller/dealer/auctioneer after the fact (if one wants to know this info, and who the restoration person was).
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think of the poster like a woman, if she has a few creases, are you going to tell her about it?
I don't talk to my posters, I am not completely crazy yet... And, I am only in the market for spring chickens
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I don't talk to my posters, I am not completely crazy yet.
you don't know what you're missing
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I don't talk to my posters, but they never shut up.
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An answer to this question never materialized the first time, so I'm trying again.
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bump.gif
An answer to this question never materialized the first time, so I'm trying again.
last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work
of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.
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last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work
of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.
Right, and I recall that you mentioned Mario's name at that time; that's why I qualified those situations in my first question. And
But often, dealers know the intricate details of a poster's pre-retore condition as well as the details of what was done to a piece, post-restore. So if all that can be explained, to a degree, then certainly if a dealer/auctioneer sent the piece out to have the work done, the restorer, whose work has been described, should be named, too.
It shouldnt be a mystery, yet it seems to be. Why is the restorer's ID kept in the shadows?
BTW, Mario did an amazing job on that HS, Rich! notworthy.gif
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I see at the major auction houses (like a certain one going on now...) about two dozen foreign men and women working under fluorescent lights in a basement somewhere with masks over their faces over giant tables with rollers and chemicals and unprimed rolls of canvas behind them, etc. They're being watched by a few real experts, and while they've been doing this for a while, they don't get to work on the really exclusive pieces, its more about quantity.
This is a distorted version of reality, but not that distorted I believe.
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It sounds like a poster sweat shop. rofl1
Makes for an interesting, (albeit fictional) scenario.
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I see at the major auction houses (like a certain one going on now...) about two dozen foreign men and women working under fluorescent lights in a basement somewhere with masks over their faces over giant tables with rollers and chemicals and unprimed rolls of canvas behind them, etc. They're being watched by a few real experts, and while they've been doing this for a while, they don't get to work on the really exclusive pieces, its more about quantity.
This is a distorted version of reality, but not that distorted I believe.
there are 3 places where I understand this happens - China, India and Mississippi and all the 'restorers' are 7-12 year old children.
sometimes these posters turn up at Posterfix
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last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work
of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.
It was worth restoring Rich. Searchers is a splendid film. While the HS might not be as visually elegant as the US OS it is the only format that honours Ford's landscape and cinematography. The only one where you can see the horizon and skyline without any lettering.
Splendid.
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there are 3 places where I understand this happens - China, India and Mississippi and all the 'restorers' are 7-12 year old children.
sometimes these posters turn up at Posterfix
As his videos clearly show. Doh.gif
But even then, at least we know that it is someone named Chris Cloutier that is doing the so-called restoration work. So if he and his kind of work can be identified, why not the others who do incredible work?
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this is a bit of my point. How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario? I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters.
And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past... for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\
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this is a bit of my point. How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario? I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters.
And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past... for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\
I would be willing to bet that many high bidding collectors look at, and scrutinize these details with mucho interest. If that wasnt the case, why provide super size images at all? And ESPECIALLY when considering dropping thousands of dollars on a piece that may have had considerable retouching or restoration work.
And when the work is done beautifully and expertly, why not tout the artist by name and the talent that went into doing the work?
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this is a bit of my point. How many high rollers spending thousands in the signature auction this weekend really stare at the folds or the 1one tear that was touched up and really knows the difference between how Chris "oh fuck it " Cloutier would have fixed it or someone like Dario? I don't mean to take anything away from the real talents, but all that matters for many a buyer is owning the actual poster itself so unless the restorer completely botches the thing, its will look great framed, seen from a few feet away and that's all that matters.
And if anyone looks closer, ''yes of course there are signs of restoration" and if pressed, well, you kick your guests out of the house. Its like asking your girlfriend how many guys she's banged in the past... for everyone's sake those questions are better left unanswered :-\
badly restored items don't make it into Heritage Signature auctions and in HA's case, they mention all the restoration, to my knowledge.
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badly restored items don't make it into Heritage Signature auctions and in HA's case, they mention all the restoration, to my knowledge.
True. And who was the restorer (if you ask).
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It does matter I'm not saying it doesn't and yes I agree re full disclosure jeff. But on a resto scale of 1 to 10 what would make the cut for HA? 7/10? So yes "badly restored" doesn't get auctioned, but how hard is it to hit that 7/10 mark and get in? Would Cloutier get in? Probably. For all I know HA keeps biddingon the posterfix "ten linenbacked one sheets" auctions on ebay...and wins everytime.
Besides bruce has the highest resolution images moreso than HA I believe and even his are 2 dimension only and to get a sense of what a restored "tear" looks like and whether its a 8 or a 6 on 10, you'd be hard pressed so distinguish that from an image..
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It does matter I'm not saying it doesn't and yes I agree re full disclosure jeff. But on a resto scale of 1 to 10 what would make the cut for HA? 7/10? So yes "badly restored" doesn't get auctioned, but how hard is it to hit that 7/10 mark and get in? Would Cloutier get in? Probably. For all I know HA keeps bidding on the posterfix "ten linenbacked one sheets" auctions on ebay...and wins everytime.
Besides bruce has the highest resolution images moreso than HA I believe and even his are 2 dimension only and to get a sense of what a restored "tear" looks like and whether its a 8 or a 6 on 10, you'd be hard pressed so distinguish that from an image..
I would think, in general, that Chris Cloutier's posters would likely Never pass muster at HA or EMP. But there are exceptions to every rule.
And HA works with a restorer on its pieces for the Sig auctions if the posters need work, so I doubt that they are going for the Posterfix "ebay specials." And its likely that EMP avoids his 10-back specials, too.
As far as pics go...both have great large digital images, that can be zoomed in on very well so that any and all flaws, details etc can be seen. EMP disables the super size ability some time after auctions end, whereas HA's database images are always able to be looked at in that X-large format, be it now or with images from years ago.
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I would think, in general, that Chris Cloutier's posters would likely Never pass muster at HA or EMP. But there are exceptions to every rule.
And HA works with a restorer on its pieces for the Sig auctions if the posters need work, so I doubt that they are going for the Posterfix "ebay specials." And its likely that EMP avoids his 10-back specials, too.
As far as pics go...both have great large digital images, that can be zoomed in on very well so that any and all flaws, details etc can be seen. EMP disables the super size ability some time after auctions end, whereas HA's database images are always able to be looked at in that X-large format, be it now or with images from years ago.
I did see an eBay listing once where the seller touted that the poster had been restored by Chris Cloutier of Posterfix. I definitely did not bid on that one.
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the US OS it is the only format that honours Ford's landscape and cinematography. The only one where you can see the horizon and skyline without any lettering.
I think the Japanese poster makes a great, lower-cost alternative as well! I put them up side-by-side below and adjusted the output dimensions to match their actual relative sizes. Even though the Japanese B2 is a smaller poster the size of the actual art is quite close.
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/20080408/550/searchers_linen_PA01586_L.jpg)(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/AA150407/550/japanese_b2_searchers_linen_SD01708_C.jpg)
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I did see an eBay listing once where the seller touted that the poster had been restored by Chris Cloutier of Posterfix. I definitely did not bid on that one.
The Elmer's Glue paper repairs would be one of the dead giveaways, Deke. Doh.gif
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The Elmer's Glue paper repairs would be one of the dead giveaways, Deke. Doh.gif
Don't forget the brown-orange rings from rusty cans being set directly on the image surface :o
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Don't forget the brown-orange rings from rusty cans being set directly on the image surface :o
Yup...
That's because "rust orange" isnt a true, water color pencil shade. So it has to be gotten from the true rusted source... ;D
But getting back to the point here. We still know his name, and he often does less than "stellar" work.
Who are those doing the good work for the auction houses? Why is it OK to only know the names of the ones that are sub par?
Seems backwards.
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They can't go by here say either. If I say Dario did this they need actual proof he did, to be able to say he did. :)
I also agree with some of the other comments. Most people who are spending thousands don't really care who did the work. They just tell Jeeves to get me this. Obviously, if it was glaringly crappy most places wouldn't even auction it.
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They can't go by here say either. If I say Dario did this they need actual proof he did, to be able to say he did. :)
I also agree with some of the other comments. Most people who are spending thousands don't really care who did the work. They just tell Jeeves to get me this. Obviously, if it was glaringly crappy most places wouldn't even auction it.
I guess my point, Anthony, is that if all the pre-restoration flaws/damage are pointed out, as a matter of descriptive fact, and then those flaws, or damage are then be spoken of, as being "expertly addressed & repaired, restored or conserved" which is also as part of a poster's auction descriptive), then why isnt the person who did that work, also named in that paragraph? Just the same as an auction house or dealer will mention the name of the poster artist, if it's known.
Im not meaning it needs to be announced with a 21 gun salute or anything...LOL, but simply included, as a matter of course. :)
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I agree. If they know for certain who did it then they should mention the info. I just think a lot of times they're not going to know for certain who worked on it.
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Yes, true. If the restorer is unknown, then so be it.
BUT -----
In many situations (again, not all), a seller, dealer or auctioneer does know this info (or better yet, a Dealer/Auctioneer has sent a poster off to be restored him/herself) to be worked on, prior to auctioning it.
Why then, is that person described, subsequently & generically, only as "the restorer?"
Don't they deserve credit for the work they have done?
I think they do.
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last time I got something done (the Searchers half sheet) I showed front & back before & after pics & explained that Mario Cueva did the work
of course, I can only do this when I get the work done, which is rare, as I believe that paper must be allowed to roam free, like free range chickens.
Agreed.
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If people cant simply explain and "fess up" as to what was done and want to go thru all the trouble of a "fictional fabrication...."
..... then so be it.
I would expect more, though, from "world recognized" auctioneers and dealers. :P
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I think the Japanese poster makes a great, lower-cost alternative as well! I put them up side-by-side below and adjusted the output dimensions to match their actual relative sizes. Even though the Japanese B2 is a smaller poster the size of the actual art is quite close.
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/20080408/550/searchers_linen_PA01586_L.jpg)(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/AA150407/550/japanese_b2_searchers_linen_SD01708_C.jpg)
That Japanese poster is a beaut. Thanks for sharing that.
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A hologram sounds good like of image of restorer like of Chris Cloutier plus have additional 12 point security features just to be sure.
Also good to know the exact name of the restorer and the number of years experience the restorer had at that time, for example "Chris Cloitier - 2 months experience" plus if the restorer was going thru a life crisis like marriage breakdown, good extra information too.
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I think the Japanese poster makes a great, lower-cost alternative as well! I put them up side-by-side below and adjusted the output dimensions to match their actual relative sizes. Even though the Japanese B2 is a smaller poster the size of the actual art is quite close.
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/20080408/550/searchers_linen_PA01586_L.jpg)(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/AA150407/550/japanese_b2_searchers_linen_SD01708_C.jpg)
+ 1, Matt.
It knocks it out of the park.
thumbsup.gif
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Lawl @ Steve.
I see what you mean, Jeff. I edited my comment, although I was referring to what a consignor could do, as far as saying one thing when actually something far from that may have taken place. A fancy hologram, correlating to a report from the resto. company would be a good way to prove it's all legit.
Anyway, I missed what you said here, which I agree with.
cheers
Yes, true. If the restorer is unknown, then so be it.
BUT -----
In many situations (again, not all), a seller, dealer or auctioneer does know this info (or better yet, a Dealer/Auctioneer has sent a poster off to be restored him/herself) to be worked on, prior to auctioning it.
Why then, is that person described, subsequently & generically, only as "the restorer?"
Don't they deserve credit for the work they have done?
I think they do.
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I think the Japanese poster makes a great, lower-cost alternative as well!
](http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/AA150407/550/japanese_b2_searchers_linen_SD01708_C.jpg)
Matt it is always a pleasure to read what catches your eyes. The Japanese is wonderful . Their Stagecoah is so playful too, with a tiny John Ford head at the top. Love them...(don't you think their Western posters are amongst the best, like the Italians.
Thank you for posting this.
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Lawl @ Steve.
I see what you mean, Jeff. I edited my comment, although I was referring to what a consignor could do, as far as saying one thing when actually something far from that may have taken place. A fancy hologram, correlating to a report from the resto. company would be a good way to prove it's all legit.
Anyway, I missed what you said here, which I agree with.
cheers
Yeah, Brandon, I know there could be some potential for deception, but if a consignor sends off a piece that has been wonderfully restored, then you would think that, along with telling the auction house what was done, repair-wise or other, that the name of the person who did that work would also be included in the "packaging notes." If the work was less than, then I could see someone fudging the identity, maybe.
This way, the dealer/auctioneer knows this info, even if they werent the ones who had the work done, and can also include the name in the poster's description.
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I think the Japanese poster makes a great, lower-cost alternative as well! I put them up side-by-side below and adjusted the output dimensions to match their actual relative sizes. Even though the Japanese B2 is a smaller poster the size of the actual art is quite close.
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/20080408/550/searchers_linen_PA01586_L.jpg)(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/moviestars/AA150407/550/japanese_b2_searchers_linen_SD01708_C.jpg)
There is also the illusive UK quad! Again, I tried to roughly approximate the actual size compared to the US and Japanese posters...
(https://pccdn.perfectchannel.com/christies/live/images/item/VintageFilmPosters25099/5812456/large/CSK_10275_0101.jpg)
And of course, we can't forget the 6-sheet :-)
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/transparencies_for_books/550/scanF600_20130117_165124.jpg)
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Nice seeing them relative to their sizes. Good work!
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while all those posters shown in the thread are cool looking, I wonder what pertinence they have to this thread?
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It was worth restoring Rich. Searchers is a splendid film. While the HS might not be as visually elegant as the US OS it is the only format that honours Ford's landscape and cinematography. The only one where you can see the horizon and skyline without any lettering.
Splendid.
You started it :P
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Earlier, Rich mentioned and gave an example of a poster he sent to be restored, prior to him auctioning it. It was a (Searchers HS, done by Mario Cueva @ Lumiere Poster Restoration). It turned out beautifully, too. So kudos to Mario, for his fine work done on that piece. clap
Hopefully Bruce will chime in this thread, as it would be great to know his thoughts on the subject, too. :D
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Also the use of a sliding scale: for example, according to EMP a 1950s poster can look much shittier than 1980s one, yet both be "very good". This makes sense, but it makes it even harder to land on a common system.
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Also the use of a sliding scale: for example, according to EMP a 1950s poster can look much shittier than 1980s one, yet both be "very good". This makes sense, but it makes it even harder to land on a common system.
Vick, I like the idea of a sliding scale for identifying restorers and what posters they worked on. Maybe that's the way to do it!! thumbsup.gif
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A year and a day since my last post in this thread, and the main query has yet to be fully explained. crying ;D
When people consign to auction houses, is there a line or section on the consignment form that asks about restoration, the specific retouch/repair work done and by whom, (if an item that is sent off to that auction hosue is already linen backed)?
If not, it seems like it would make sense to have that, so that the auction house could then know what was done and by what restorer.
And to then be able to pass that information along to bidders, in the lot description.
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While I agree it would be great to know who has worked on which posters (and exactly what was done to them) - I think the difficulty lies in when posters have been resold many times over. Confirmation of the original restorer is simply lost by that point since there really is no standard or accepted documentation method in the hobby that stays with the poster over time...
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Very true, Chris, in those cases.
My main point and question, tho, is about auction houses and dealers that send posters out themselves to be backed and restored. Most times, we see some vague line that reads something like: "Prior to backing the poster had XXX problems", (often outlined in great detail), then continues: "It was worked on by a well known or talented restorer who addressed the issues and it now displays wonderfully." (paraphrasing here, of course).
The person who did the work is known, yet unnamed. That, at least to me, shouldn't be a secret, but the name indicated, just as all the pre- and post-restore issues were mentioned.
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Maybe there are contractual issues between the auction house/site and the restorer in seeming to endorse the restorer (and their business) by stating them by name? What if the buyer is unsatisfied - does that fall on the auctioneer or the restorer? If the posters were consigned who ultimately has the contract with the restorer (i.e. in situations as with Heritage where they send out consigned posters to be restored prior to auction)?
I agree the transparency would be welcome but there are likely several levels that need to be sorted out.
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These are all questions that would be great to have answers for.
Though I cant imagine that a restorer's name couldnt be revealed? But again, that's one of those questions that I hope can be answered.
Customers not satisfied AFTER winning a poster, due to restoration issues.... I wonder if this has ever happened before, and if the winning bidder has any recourse? But when supersize pics and descriptions are offered, that probably protects the auction house or dealer from that kind of buyer's remorse.
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Plus, I cant imagine that organizations like HA, MPB, MPE or emp would put something up for auction, had it been badly restored. And has been pointed out in another thread, too (http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,6397.0.html), Rich made no bones about mentioning (and showing) the great work that Mario Cueva did on that Searchers HS that he auctioned.
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why?
because the vast majority of potential buyers/bidders do not really care who did the work as long as it was done properly. You can always contact the auction house or ebay seller and ask them if it is that important to you. In over 15 years as a dealer I think I've received maybe one or two emails asking us who restored an item we were selling.
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I guess my point was to put the restorer's name or studio/company name in the description (if known), after explaining all the work that had been done. Rather than saying, "It was backed by a talented restorer...." replace "talented restorer" with the name/company. It would certainly be easy enough to do.
Whether that info is asked about or wanted (or not) is actually beside the point. And that way, that added info is there for everyone to see. The more information, the better.
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You asked a question, I gave you an answer. My answer is not "beside the point". The truth is that most buyers (not all) consider the information to be irrelevant. If Bruce, or Grey, or other auction house decision makers were constantly bombarded with querys about this then I'm sure the information would be included on a regular basis. They aren't, so it isn't.
Usually the posters we are selling have expert restoration and look fantastic. Once in a while we will get in a restored poster that has had terrible work done or it is a very old restoration. Sometimes this can't be seen in a photo so we describe it as accurately as we can.
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While I agree it would be great to know who has worked on which posters (and exactly what was done to them) - I think the difficulty lies in when posters have been resold many times over. Confirmation of the original restorer is simply lost by that point since there really is no standard or accepted documentation method in the hobby that stays with the poster over time...
this is correct
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I sort of agree with most everyone in this thread to some degree
when I restored the Searchers HS, I was happy to give Mario some promo, but that may not be an option for everyone as Chris says. It is indeed possible that a corporation like HA or others may have confidentiality agreements that prevent the revelation. Sometimes a company only uses a single restorer and are happy to answer any question (Profiles I think would tell you John Davis did any restoration for them, even after he screwed up the authentication of several pieces, some of which came from Haggard) and others won't tell you anything (for a variety of reasons from "Let them find their own linenbacker. Maybe he'll suck and it's good for my own biz that they get a guy who sucks" to "if I give out the name and he gets too busy, his price goes up & maybe the time element increases also" to "why the heck would I help my competitor find a good restorer?" etc).
another factor is that sometime a large business gives a person so much work, they don't do anything for anyone else and they don't want headhunters hiring them away
there are a lot of good points here, on both sides of this fence
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by the way, I hear that someone actually thinks Posterfix does good work
Say it ain't so, Joe.....
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I sort of agree with most everyone in this thread to some degree
when I restored the Searchers HS, I was happy to give Mario some promo, but that may not be an option for everyone as Chris says. It is indeed possible that a corporation like HA or others may have confidentiality agreements that prevent the revelation. Sometimes a company only uses a single restorer and are happy to answer any question (Profiles I think would tell you John Davis did any restoration for them, even after he screwed up the authentication of several pieces, some of which came from Haggard) and others won't tell you anything (for a variety of reasons from "Let them find their own linenbacker. Maybe he's suck and it's good for my own biz that they get a guy who sucks" to "if I give out the name and he gets too busy, his price goes up & maybe the time element increases also" to "why the heck would I help my competitor find a good restorer?" etc).
another factor is that sometime a large business gives a person so much work, they don't do anything for anyone else and they don't want headhunters hiring them away
there are a lot of good points here, on both sides of this fence
Interesting perspectives to consider, all the way around. Thanks, Rich.
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I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.
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I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.
Interesting, Rich. This is one line of thought that never crossed my mind. I wonder how "popular" this angle is?
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Because when it is finally accepted that prominent restorers use wallpaper paste as a default (yes you can ask for conservative wheat paste) from premade buckets and easy mix powders and a big money collector that didn't know finds out... Dealers would have to face the music. Why would seller's want the responsibility of vouching for restorers... Also why keeping the restorer unknown protects them.
Or in the recent case John Reid had double digit daybills start to develop spots. If that restorer had been named, all posters from that restorer would be tainted going forward. Can you imagine if in 10 years all of a prominent restorer's posters started developing problems. In some ways not knowing protects sellers.
Which bring us to the real problem is that once a restored poster is out of a restorer's hands there is no way to track the environmental conditions that the poster was stored in etc. Two posters, one stored in an archival environment and one stored in a damp bulding won't be in the same, say condition of stability... One might already have mold growth the other not. But now you have put those undocumented storage conditions on the seller and restorer both.
It is exactly the same reason restorers don't mark their posters. Why doesn't Postermountain emboss a corner of their work? Without identification it removes the liability of future issues either caused by poor practice or poor collector storage. It's really a win-win situation for restorers. They can always blame it on the collector for improper storage. I would think HA and Bruce wouldn't have any problems naming the restorer if the restorer themselves marked and guaranteed their work. If it did happen, there would have to be an intensive tracking program to keep up with the owners or even environmental tags to alert moisture conditions.
It's just not feasible to place the liability on a seller or restorer. It's not feasible to ever truly know what has been done or what environmental conditions a restored poster has been in.
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I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.
Kind of sounds like a gamblin' man who lives in Las Vegas replied here. ;D
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Kind of sounds like a gamblin' man who lives in Las Vegas replied here. ;D
a piece of the action always starts on Wall Street
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Great info. here. An interesting look from salespersons, buyers, and restoration experts' perspectives.
A lot of good reasons why the restorers' names would not be mentioned.
It's probably relatively simple for someone who has handled a lot of posters, to see if there are any visible blunders in the work. As Charlie was saying though, there could be a lot of potentially negative things that no one could know about, unless they had actually seen every step in the preservation/restoration process. Although some sellers claim "the work was done well," or make no mention that nearly the entire piece was painted (aka restored), etc., to each his/her own.
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If the work was sloppy or really bad, then I can certainly see why that name might not want to be mentioned (as in any piece done by Posterfix/Cloutier), but Im sure that folks like Grey will look at a piece (if it's one they received to consign that was already backed) and determine if it should be included in their auction, especially if it looks questionable.
But super size images also help to show, to a degree, what has been done, along with detailed descriptions. Again, if the seller sent the the poster out himself to be done, then he/she knows exactly the pre-condition of the poster as well as what was done to it, when it comes back.
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If the work was sloppy or really bad, then I can certainly see why that name might not want to be mentioned (as in any piece done by Posterfix/Cloutier), but Im sure that folks like Grey will look at a piece (if it's one they received to consign that was already backed) and determine if it should be included in their auction, especially if it looks questionable.
But super size images also help to show, to a degree, what has been done, along with detailed descriptions. Again, if the seller sent the the poster out himself to be done, then he/she knows exactly the pre-condition of the poster as well as what was done to it, when it comes back.
Right. I'm sure a main reason is that it's just a lot more simple for sellers to go on the here and now, that is, how the item appears in its current state. When people have too many options, things to consider, etc., it makes buying something more of a process, which may negatively affect sales.
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Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.
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Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.
I wouldn't have any additional confidence in these pieces. All irreversible work with most likely wallpaper paste and not much conservation practice/standards included in backing them. They may be pretty though... Just because you are well known doesn't mean you are treating all pieces the same. Unless you've been in business 50-70 years, there is no way to tell what your practices may yield. However, true conservation based practices are 100s of years proven. Regardless of the restorer, there is no way to know. I may ask Postermountain to use conservative wheat paste and watercolor pencils only on all my posters but collector X is OK with 785 Clear wallpaper paste and permanent color pencils. Postermountain shouldn't mean anything in terms of conservation - sure, they are good with an airbrush though; spewing acrylic paint all over your poster. It's better to not know.
Plus, back to my original point. Even if Postermountain is all over the poster - you still don't know where and how a poster was stored.
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Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.
Indeed.
cheers
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Indeed.
cheers
For sure, Brandon. That's what the point of this thread was.. whether a restorer's name should be part of an auction description or not, and what people think about that idea. cheers
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While I agree it would be great to know who has worked on which posters (and exactly what was done to them) - I think the difficulty lies in when posters have been resold many times over. Confirmation of the original restorer is simply lost by that point since there really is no standard or accepted documentation method in the hobby that stays with the poster over time...
Can't disagree with all the concerns raised.