All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Authentication => Topic started by: Dread_Pirate_Mel on June 28, 2010, 08:09:33 AM
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Ebay is currently "flooded" with Woodstock posters. A seller (123-liquidation) told me that "a projectionist died in Nashville, he had a roll of the things, his friend was a poster collector & he traded a bunch of them last winter to every poster dealer on eBay - if he saw a poster he liked, he would just trade 'Woodstocks' for them."
Other sellers (including some less reputable ones) are saying the same thing, so the story has some "truthiness" and the union logo looks good.
Anyway, I picked up one for $60. If anybody has any info on this, please post. Here are the seller's pics:
(http://www.reelgoldonesheets.com/images/DSC01151.JPG)
(http://www.reelgoldonesheets.com/images/DSC01160.JPG)
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There have been a few threads on this...........some say that it is a bootleg, that no such poster existed. others say that they are authentic. personally, I have no idea.
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There have been a few threads on this...........some say that it is a bootleg, that no such poster existed. others say that they are authentic. personally, I have no idea.
Here's the thread on MPF (http://www.movieposterforum.com/index.php?/topic/30875-new-likely-repro-alert-rolled-1970-woodstock-one-sheets/page__p__561899__hl__woodstock__fromsearch__1#entry561899). Bruce saw one of these and believes they are fake or some kind of studio reprint and they appear to be "fuzzy."
I'll probably just go ahead and buy it and inspect it. The union logo looks pretty clear from the seller's photo. If it is in fact fuzzy and a digital repro, I'll return it.
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I was having a look on the official Woodstock site and the only version they have on this is the Johannesburg edition,, the only difference i can see and it maybe just the photo,but the white background appears to be alot duller than the official one they have online... my two cents worth.
I also have doubts about the projectionist background story, yes, back then projectionists used to change the posters on a Thursday night but in no way did cinemas receive 100`s of these now or back then. Imagine the numbers involved of sending out 100 odd posters at a time to any cinema of the era,there was simply no need on either side.
The poster you have posted looks to be trimmed on both sides,,the Quotation marks on either side of the title should have a bigger margin.
Take a gamble Mel if you like too,but dont pay over the odds if you can avoid doing so.
(sorry Mel i just noticed you had already bought)
Stew
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A previously unknown poster starts showing up in the 1,000s... it is rolled but from the 1970s... and they all supposedly originate from a single projectionist in TN. I've been seduced by this story before, but I ultimately passed. I think I made the right choice.
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I've been seduced by this story before, but I ultimately passed. I think I made the right choice.
I think you made the right choice as well.
Chad
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The bottom line is it doesn't even matter if somehow they WERE authentic (but I DID look at one in person and they don't pass the "smell" test, meaning that something stinks about them).
If they were real, then the huge supply would guarantee they will sell for far less for 20 or 30 years.
Bottom line: wait until 2035 or so and then pick one up from whomever runs http://www.eMoviePoster.com (http://www.eMoviePoster.com) then for around $20!
Bruce
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For info only.
Johannesburg Edition.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx132/stewartboyle/woodstock-movie-poster2.jpg)
slight difference in the guitar too.(maybe irrelevant)
Stew
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Here's what the seller (http://shop.ebay.com/123-liquidation/m.html) is telling me:
"Hey - Dave Lieberman over at 'cinemasterpieces' is selling these. I sold about 3-4 and everyone raved on feedback. Its the paper that sells it for me - 100% vintage. I took a little look on the logo, its cleveland,ohio, LPIU local 412 something or another. Its clear but very small, you need a mag-glass. Believe me, I have owned THOUSANDS of one sheets, I have seen all out there - its a nice sheet. I'd keep it, but things are slow as far as $$, so its all yours! I really think you'll like it. Anyone who says 'Very Dubious' has never seen an old roll of NSS posters. I was at a ski resort years ago and bought a 50-count roll of 1975 'Lucky Lady' of all things. I know unfolded 1970's prints are a little weird but they DO show up every now & then. Its no knockoff, I am SURE of that. I'll get it right to you - let me know what YOU think. I weighed it, measured it, mag-glassed it - it passes all tests, don't know what else to say! :-)"
And sure enough Dave is selling it for $495 here. (http://cinemasterpieces.com/aapics09/woodoct09.jpg)
"We have been informed that this is most likely a "studio" issued one sheet or a special local wilding one sheet. Until recently, this version had not been known to the poster collecting community. Not NSS issued. Whatever it is exactly, we are certain it is from the time period from when the film was released."
So for $60 I'll take a chance. As long as it's not a digital repro, I'll probably keep it, whatever the hell it is.
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Here's what the seller (http://shop.ebay.com/123-liquidation/m.html) is telling me:
"Hey - Dave Lieberman over at 'cinemasterpieces' is selling these. I sold about 3-4 and everyone raved on feedback. Its the paper that sells it for me - 100% vintage. I took a little look on the logo, its cleveland,ohio, LPIU local 412 something or another. Its clear but very small, you need a mag-glass. Believe me, I have owned THOUSANDS of one sheets, I have seen all out there - its a nice sheet. I'd keep it, but things are slow as far as $$, so its all yours! I really think you'll like it. Anyone who says 'Very Dubious' has never seen an old roll of NSS posters. I was at a ski resort years ago and bought a 50-count roll of 1975 'Lucky Lady' of all things. I know unfolded 1970's prints are a little weird but they DO show up every now & then. Its no knockoff, I am SURE of that. I'll get it right to you - let me know what YOU think. I weighed it, measured it, mag-glassed it - it passes all tests, don't know what else to say! :-)"
And sure enough Dave is selling it for $495 here. (http://cinemasterpieces.com/aapics09/woodoct09.jpg)
"We have been informed that this is most likely a "studio" issued one sheet or a special local wilding one sheet. Until recently, this version had not been known to the poster collecting community. Not NSS issued. Whatever it is exactly, we are certain it is from the time period from when the film was released."
So for $60 I'll take a chance. As long as it's not a digital repro, I'll probably keep it, whatever the hell it is.
I think using Dave as a standard for anything questionable is 'Very Dubious', as would most who know his history.
If it was a 'studio issue' or wilding poster, then what would a projectionist in Tenn be doing with a large roll?
Anyone see a black & white Mean Streets recently?
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I think using Dave as a standard for anything questionable is 'Very Dubious', as would most who know his history.
What history?...
Sometimes, I must admit, you guys creep me out and I just wonder what the fuck? Whats real? Whats fake? Whats anything?
Then I go buy more stuff :P
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Zorba, you must educate yourself ;) Although it is going to take a LONG time to read through the NS4 and MOPO archives.
This is not an attack against Dave as I have nothing personally against him (I've even bought some nice daybills off him). I am just referring to the fact that just about every regular dealer or collector has a "history" on the poster forums - for good or bad, true or untrue...
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Right. Sometimes it is just a matter of perception, eh?
One must be careful casting aspersions.
Boiiiinnnnnggg!
hitself
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Right. Sometimes it is just a matter of perception, eh?
One must be careful casting aspersions.
Boiiiinnnnnggg!
hitself
In the face of questionable material, Dave has, time and time again, stood on very shaky ethical ground. Non-questionable material is another matter. He's not one of the bad guys, but his used-car salesman hucksterism gets the better of him at times, particularly, at these times. The idea that another dealer would use him to bolster his case for authenticity of newly discovered, highly questionable material is an unfunny joke. I have to think that most anyone who has known Dave since the days of MPT would agree.
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Zorba, you must educate yourself ;) Although it is going to take a LONG time to read through the NS4 and MOPO archives.
This is not an attack against Dave as I have nothing personally against him (I've even bought some nice daybills off him). I am just referring to the fact that just about every regular dealer or collector has a "history" on the poster forums - for good or bad, true or untrue...
Im trying. Ive read much over the last year. I cant believe how much stuff there is to go through. This stuff is never ending.
Its not about Dave(I just think of him as the higher priced guy not the scammer like some of the notorious ebay guys.) I have bought from other "highly touted/respected" dealers only to get posters that Im pretty sure are not the real deal. Its hard to figure out who or what to believe. There are many personality conflicts in posters. :P
Some of it is educational, some of it is entertaining and some of it is frustrating...
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There are many personality conflicts in posters.
Some of it is educational, some of it is entertaining and some of it is frustrating...
I don't think I could have put it better myself!
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In life, people will disagree on almost everything: price, grading, packaging, so you have to make up your own mind as to who you would/wouldn't buy from as a dealer or collector. There are comic dealers & collectors that I despise because they represent everything bad about comic collecting, but I know people that hold some of them in high regard. And there are dealers & collectors that I trust and would buy from without hesitation, but are reviled by others in the hobby.
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Its hard to figure out who or what to believe.
Zorba, don't worry. Lots of forum members here who will never hesitate to assure you that "sinister forces are at work" in the poster business.
(http://blog.cleveland.com/moviebuff_impact/2008/11/medium_pinkpanther.jpg)
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123-liquidation is not a trust worthy seller. I bought a few things from him and bottom line I had to fight for my money back.
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I had one in hand for an overseas friend and it "felt" right as to the paper, although I will admit I did not submit it to the sniffer test. Looked good to me, if it was faked someone spent some dough getting their hands on some aged paper. Granted it would not be the first time, but this would not be the title on the top of my list for the investment.
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I did receive it and my best guess is that it's the real deal. It's 27 1/8 x 41 and the tiny union logo lettering is super-sharp. However, the credit lettering is erratic in places but my guess is that's the font they were using - maybe the "Comic Sans" font or something similar. It's on very thin waxy paper that I've not seen before.
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/IMG_0005-1.jpg)
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/IMG_0006-1.jpg)
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I assume the "waxiness" you are referring to is a higher amount of gloss. That is the trademark of the bogus inserts and lobby cards. The paper poster printers used in the 1970s was slightly glossy on the front, and not at all glossy on the back. The paper most poster printers used in the 1990s on is slightly glossy on the back, and much more glossy on the front. Since the minty white inserts are also on this sort of paper, I think it incredibly likely they were created in the 1990s or later.
I can differentiate most fakes from real posters and lobby cards in total darkness! I just feel both sides of the item and it becomes obvious. Oh wait... once all cards are slabbed, then the "feel" test will go out the window!
Bruce
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I can differentiate most fakes from real posters and lobby cards in total darkness! I just feel both sides of the item and it becomes obvious. Oh wait... once all cards are slabbed, then the "feel" test will go out the window!
Bruce
You got that right Bruce. Unless one wants to ruin the "entombment" and void the grading of course...
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I assume the "waxiness" you are referring to is a higher amount of gloss. That is the trademark of the bogus inserts and lobby cards. The paper poster printers used in the 1970s was slightly glossy on the front, and not at all glossy on the back. The paper most poster printers used in the 1990s on is slightly glossy on the back, and much more glossy on the front. Since the minty white inserts are also on this sort of paper, I think it incredibly likely they were created in the 1990s or later.
I can differentiate most fakes from real posters and lobby cards in total darkness! I just feel both sides of the item and it becomes obvious. Oh wait... once all cards are slabbed, then the "feel" test will go out the window!
Bruce
Bruce, who are "they" and how were "they" able to replicate the LPIU logo - which ceased existence in the early 1970s - so perfectly? It seems like a lot of trouble for not much profit. Here are pics from the Woodstock poster I received:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/P7040002.jpg)
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/P7040003.jpg)
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Bruce, who are "they" and how were "they" able to replicate the LPIU logo - which ceased existence in the early 1970s - so perfectly? It seems like a lot of trouble for not much profit. Here are pics from the Woodstock poster I receive
Bruce never mentions a "they" in his post that would refer to a person. The only "they" he mentions refers to the posters themselves. But if you want to know who most people perpetrated the minty whites, that would be a couple of guys. Check ebay for poster sellers from Claremore, OK and Rochester, NY if you want to know specifically. As far as how they got logos, presumably, they had some original plates for some vintage poster giving them access to lots of the needed logos, etc. But I am sure there are folks around here that know more than I do.
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Back the truck up, the one I had my hands on had no wax paper, thick, any other phrase you can come up with feel to them. It felt like the thin, 70's release paper to me. Granted I may only have 1000 or 2 from that decade in my collection.
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One real possibility is that they may have been printed for an actual re-release.
But whatever the answer, the seller seems to have an endless quantity, so its long term upside potential seems bleak to me.
Bruce
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So here's some new information about a variant of the Woodstock poster. I've been talking a seller on Ebay who claims he worked in a movie theater in the late 60s/early 70s. He generally seems to be truthful and - more importantly - has a very rare 40x60 Butch Cassidy Style A from 1968 to prove it. He claims that the theater gave out 27x41 Woodstock posters to movie attendees when the movie was playing. He kept 27 of them and stuck them in a closet. Now he's started selling them out of financial necessity.
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-APF/Wood1.jpg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-APF/Wood2.jpg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-APF/Wood3.jpg)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE/0-APF/Wood4.jpg)
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These don't have that suspicious, infant-calibre rendering of the 'Style C' either...
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Some "breaking news" on the Woodstock "Style C" poster.
I received an email from a credible source explaining their origin. I'm trying to call the guy to confirm but he sounds legit and it is consistent with other sources.
He says the theater chain in Ohio for which his father worked received 1,000 of these "Style C" posters as promotional giveaways for the re-release of the 35mm version of the movie Woodstock, which he says was a conversion from the original 16mm movie. He can't remember the date but thinks it was late 70s or early 80s. I can't find anything on the Internet about the 35mm version, perhaps someone else can.
He says very few patrons took the posters, his father was told to throw them away by the manager but he kept them, and he (the son) ultimately inherited them. He sold the best of them to a collector in Nashville but still has some.
This story is consistent with the theater usher in San Francisco who kept 27 of the promotional posters.
It still does not explain the LPIU logo. LPIU merged into the GAIU union in 1973 and you don't see the LPIU logo on post-1973 posters.
The email contains quite a bit more detail and I may eventually just post the entire email.
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I'm a bit suspicious of statements that the film was initially released as 16mm. I know it was shot in 16mm, but most commercial theaters were not set up to project 16mm at the time. I first saw the film at Elmendorf AFB in Alaska in the summer of 1971. I knew the projectionist and am almost positive that a 35mm print was b3eing displayed.
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I talked to him for 45 minutes on the phone.
I'm convinced his story is legitimate. He's been a projectionist for 40 years, currently living in Nashville and has a super-strong Southern accent to prove it.
He says he is certain his theater in Lima, Ohio received two thousand of these in early 80s for promotional giveaways. They were supposed to be distributed to the entire chain of theaters in the area but never were. He moved to Nashville in 1997. He sold 1,000 of them cheap three years ago to a collector in Nashville, who apparently resold them to dealers. He still has 700 of them, most of them in poor condition with mold.
He's not sure but he thinks that the theater received different versions of the poster. The collector in Nashville told him that the "Style B" posters were printed for radio station promotions.
He cannot explain why they have the LPIU union logo (which ceased existence in 1973) but thinks they may have been printed in 1970, were stored in a studio warehouse after the movie first came out, and the studio later sent the warehoused posters out for promotion for the re-release. He is certain it must have been after 1980 because that is when his theater converted from one screen to two screens.
He says they were poorly printed and were in poor shape when the theater received them.
He has some other posters from that era (e.g. Roger Moore James Bond) that he is trying to sell as well.
He says that everyone was aware that it was illegal to take these out of the theater and sell but everyone did anyway.
I'm still not clear on the 16mm/35mm issue. He agrees that a 16mm print can't be shown at theaters, so I think he's just confused about that.
He said that most people didn't like the movie because it "was just a documentary."
He said each stack of posters was "tri-folded" but each poster was not separately tri-folded. That is consistent with the "soft folds" I've seen on my copy and every image I've seen.
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That's funny, Mel. I received a private e-mail a while ago from someone saying they know the sleazeball who created these well, and that they know the entire story of where and when. I told them that if THEY want to go public with it, they are welcome to, but I have no interest.
It sounds like this person is spending so much time with you because they know their fakes are almost "un-sellable" now, and they hope to get you on board to revive sales.
How about some receipts from the original printer, or any HARD evidence of any kind?
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And I thought this was shaping up to be the new Summer of Love
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Well, I've left out quite a few details. I have his full name and number (a Nashville area code) and, based on a Google search, his history (former theater manager, union member projectionist) checks out. He says he sold his best copies for $2 each to the Nashville collector three years ago because his financial situation was "desperate" and his remaining copies all have mold, so they're not very valuable even if they are legit. He said he did not know they were being sold on ebay for $150. He's more interested in selling his other 200 70s/80s posters, including James Bond, Grease, etc. He said he'd send me pics of them, so we'll see....
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This is the email (with identifying info deleted):
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brian P***** <*******@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 10:07 AM
Subject: Dead Woodstock Projectionist
To: "administrator@moviepostercollectors.com" <administrator@moviepostercollectors.com>
Hello,
I am the deceased projectionist from the style C, "Wood Stock Movie Poster" (lol)
Just thought I would clear up some facts for you.............I worked, along with my father as a union movie projectionist at a theatre in Lima, Ohio. I grew up in show business since I was 15 years old. I am now 56 years old. I do reside in Nashville TN. where I still thrive in show business as a union stage hand.
All of these posters were sent to the theatre my father and I worked at called the "American Mall Theatre" It was one of several theatres owned by a company called "Selected Theatres" out of Cleveland, Oh. I remember the owners name was "Sam Schultz" if my memory serves me correct. I believe there were two brothers that owned this company. The other ones name was Jay. They are deceased for sure, as they were old when I was a kid at 15.
Anyway if you know much about the Wood Stock Movie, it was originally a 16mm documentary that was filmed at the concert. The so called movie was just a fabrication/edit of that original 16 mm documentary, turned into a 35mm "movie" shown at regular movie theatres. I believe the 35mm movie was shown and made sometime in the late 70's or early 80's. I can not remember.........I started as a projectionist in 1973 at 15 years old. I remember that the manager at that theatre had died and she was replaced by another manager after I had graduated in 1975. This manager remained there until my dad became an operator/manager un till the theatre closed at a later time, after the Schultz brothers had passed.
The original "one sheet" was the "Style C" poster. one of them always was put in the Marquee of course. They came wrapped in brown wrapping paper, trifolded, not creased. They came in bundles of 3/4 hundred per bundle. I remember the give-a-way posters all came to our theatre by mistake. They were supposed to be sent to all of the theatres owned by "Selected Theatres" but were not distributed. We laid the posters out for theatre patrons to have free as they left the movie. Hardly anyone took any of them. At the end of the run of the movie, the manager told my dad to throw all of them away. He instead loaded them in his truck and kept them for years. He had me try and find a value to them. I had no success at the time, as no one knew about these posters. No one new of their existence.
After my dad passed, they were handed down to me. I usually gave away a few to close friends as a gift. I had around a thousand of them. I sold off the best ones to a guy in Nashville, a collector. I still have some left, not mint like the ones I sold off.
I know that these posters are not a boot-leg, as I was there and saw them arrive at our theatre. I would guess that they were a re-run of the "One Sheet" as a promotion type give-a-way.......................????????
They are defiantly old, and original.
I hope this helps clear things up.............
Thanks,
Brian P********
615-***-****
PS: I have around 200 other posters of various 70's/80's movies
They of course were all folded ones, as that is how they came to the theatres back then......
Thanks again!
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Ah-ha! I'd like to hear all the doubters explain this. I consulted the Google God and look what he/she/it revealed was given away on May 23, 1972 in Lima Ohio:
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv275/Forty_Candles/2012/Lima_zps7c2c0dd8.png)
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Nice detective work Mel!
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Nice detective work Mel!
I agree. The projectionist's recollections are entirely credible on their own but that newspaper ad just about seals it for me......unless Bruce has something further to reveal.
Mark
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Wonder how much Sharon and Gloria are?
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Wonder how much Sharon and Gloria are?
Ha-ha:
891-5701, 891-5701
Sharon, Sharon, you're the girl for me
You don't know me but you make me so happy
Seriously, I talked to Brian again, he said the Sharon Drive-In was across the street from his theater. He doesn't know if it was part of his theater's chain.
He said he's "prepared to testify" that his story is true and his five siblings will back him up that he inherited these posters and he's been giving them away for years as presents.
Here's a link to the Sharon Drive-In page:
http://www.drive-ins.com/theater/ohtshar
It closed in 1994.
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Looks like a #1 hit to me!
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All you can eat BBQ, $1.89
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I have a theater-used copy of I Love You Alice B. Toklas, the other poster being given away free. Warner Bros. also distributed that movie, perhaps extras of it were also printed for promotional giveaways (?):
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE2/2013-04/Toklas%201.JPG)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE2/2013-04/Toklas%202.JPG)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE2/2013-04/Toklas%203.JPG)
(http://www.posternirvana.com/0DNE2/2013-04/Toklas%204.JPG)
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Love that Woodstock poster.
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I forgot that there was a major re-release of Woodstock in 1979. It's somewhat unlikely but it's possible that Warner Bros. (or this particular theater chain in Ohio) in 1979 still had leftover stock of the posters given away in the early 1970s (printed before 1973 since they have the LPIU union logo) and continued to give them away as promotions in the late 1970s, which would resolve the time issues. But I still think it's most likely these were given away in 1972 and Brian has confused the time line.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Yt3M33fzOLA/SEQXEt9kdDI/AAAAAAAAFec/qjeeRK1V9t4/s400/005.jpg)
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More information on this:
I talked to Rick Frogge, a collector/dealer in Nashville with 21,000 posters in his collection. He verified that Brian did sell him 400 of these Style C posters and he (Rick) resold and traded those posters. He's convinced they are real. He personally viewed Brian's stash of these and said they came in NSS bags. He said Brian had many other posters from that era as well.
He traded some of these "Style C" posters to a collector in New Zealand and that collector said he had identical posters but with a New Zealand censorship stamp.
Rick had quite a lot of information about the hobby. He's worked in the promotion industry for many years. He bought out the Atlanta and Miami NSS warehouses when they closed in the 1980s. He said the posters were difficult to sell in the 1980s and you had to sell them at flea markets. He said there were no pre-1960 posters at the NSS warehouses when they closed.
He told me that NSS kept all the printing plates and throughout the 1990s reprinted and sold posters on demand. For example, he said NSS printed and sold 1,000 Terminator posters to a dealer in LA (he thinks it was Greg Egbert) and thinks NSS probably sold Blade Runners and Back to the Future as well. He personally saw the printed Terminator posters at the NSS Kansas City facility.
He said that the studios distributed theatrical posters to video stores in the early 1980s. He said that studios would ship large quantities of posters to theaters for promotional purposes.
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Very interesting Mel. Thanks for the update. Your detective work is amazing!
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and Terminator, Back the Future and Bladerunner price decline begins, I'm sure the Thing and Excalibur piles were there somewhere as well.
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Some more information and trivia:
Warner Bros bought the rights to the Woodstock movie for $25,000 (as an afterthought on top of $50,00 for the album rights) and the movie has made over $200 million. It basically saved Warner Bros from bankruptcy. Warner Bros re-released Woodstock at least twice in the 1970s. The Woodstock organizers lost boatloads on the music festival itself but eventually made money thanks to the royalties from the movie. (They ran out of time and money and didn't even build ticket offices, although they did sell $1 million of tickets in advance. Most of the attendees walked in for free.) The Woodstock filmmakers only had a $20,000 budget from their own funds and spent all the money on film stock. Everyone agreed to work for free but would get double pay if the movie were successful.
Frogge told me that the manager of the Atlanta NSS warehouse offered him a box of advance Amadeus posters on the day the warehouse closed. He turned it down and they were junked.
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and Terminator, Back the Future and Bladerunner price decline begins, I'm sure the Thing and Excalibur piles were there somewhere as well.
Good! Maybe I can get my hands on a Back to the Future finally!
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Ahhh..some more questionable provenance of the "late to the market" Woodstock style C...That is style C for Con artist crap, C for crummy crony capitalist hucksterism, C for corny free later release handout, C for clean copy creationist conspiracy....ahhhh nothing in the "research" that Mel wrote will ever make me pay $10 for this poster ..especially now...is there a single collector/dealer on this forum that handled this poster in the 1970's, 80's or 90's in regularity...it is common as shit now...and I think this new story raises more questions than it answers...
I would avoid this poster like the plague...
First Mel quotes..."he says the theater chain in Ohio for which his father worked received 1,000 of these "Style C" posters as promotional giveaways for the re-release"...
Later Mel quotes.... "He sold 1,000 of them cheap three years ago to a collector in Nashville, who apparently resold them to dealers"...
Uh... yeah ....I will buy all of these for $1 a piece right now...and put them in storage wrapped around Country Joe McDonalds ..fish n chips ...and sell the nicest copy through Christie's ...after destroying all but ONE of them...just to make them a hint rarer...
Personally this questionable poster just got more questionable as the hazy memory somehow became provenance...there is no documentable proof Mel...sorry...this silly poster is a now dead for me...I will advise people in the future to stay away...
So maybe a new thread is needed...what is the rarest bootleg poster?... The hairy belt, the haggard 3 sheets, the Minty white Saturday night fever insert....or the woodstock style C...for COMMMON COPY!!
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More great work Mel.
The thing about the NSS restrikes is that, unless I'm wrong, distinguishing them from the ones printed at the original time of release is now virtually impossible, right?
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All you can eat BBQ, $1.89
Just caught this? Man you could have eaten there 20 times for the current cost of one poster shipment from Australia!
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Articles about the NSS Kansas City facility dumping its film trailers in 1997:
http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/screen-test/Content?oid=2180748
http://mimezine.blogspot.com/2005_09_04_archive.html
The building that was throwing out the trailers was the National Screen Service building - in the old days of drive-ins and independently run theaters, Kansas City was a distribution hub. Continues Huggins, "NSS had been sold and the company that bought the building made movie tie-ins, stuff like Harry Potter collectible cards. They needed room, so they threw out this completely priceless and rare film. They had a dumpster, 18 feet long and 6 feet high - they filled that up!"
Another article about Charlotte NSS closing:
http://greenbriarpictureshows.blogspot.com/2006/10/national-screen-service-and-collecting.html
When the Charlotte branch closed, they hauled every bit of that stuff to a landfill. Policy dictated that none of it be sold or given away. This was at least twenty-five years ago. Someone with a transfer truck and a stout back could have put themselves by way of a lifetime annuity that day. Of course, these things wouldn’t be such e-bay magnets now if they'd had greater foresight then.
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/310/2032/1600/nss6.jpg)
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Look at that picture! What a treasure hunt that would have been :'(
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That blog post from John McElwee and the NSS is amazing Mel! The other pictures are just as fantastic too!
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This is the Facebook page of Brian Pheneger, the source of the Style C Woodstock posters:
https://www.facebook.com/bpheneger
Check it out and decide for yourself whether he seems legit....
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This is the Facebook page of Brian Pheneger, the source of the Style C Woodstock posters:
https://www.facebook.com/bpheneger
Check it out and decide for yourself whether he seems legit....
I've lost where it says/shows where he is actually selling them
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Woodstock "Style C" US 1S (2017 rehash/update)
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C_files/Woodstock%20%281970%20SSR%29.jpg)
This is the toughest/most controversial authentication I ever attempted. The authentication is here:
http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C.html (http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C.html)
The basic story - as you'll learn if you read this thread and the authentication - is that I bought this rolled poster and it appeared to be a stone-cold 1970s original - with perfect artwork, perfect tiny union 1970s logo, serial number on back, exactly 27"x41":
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C_files/P7040002.jpg)
The "c" inexplicably was handwritten:
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C_files/DSC01162.jpg)
I interviewed the original source of these posters (this thread contains more details on my interviews):
Brian P., a former usher and theater manager, says that he and his father worked together in a theater in Lima Ohio. His theater received over a thousand Woodstock Style Cs. Brian can’t recall the exact date but believes it was in the late 1970s or early 1980s. Apparently, these were supposed to be distributed to other theaters in the same chain but never were. The posters were supposed to be given away to patrons but no one took them. The theater manager told his father to throw them away but the father kept them and Brian later inherited them. Brian says he has been giving copies of these away for years. Brian moved to Nashville and has been a theater manager and union stage hand. Three years ago he sold 400 of the “best copies” to a Nashville collector, who resold them to various movie posters dealers. Brian says he still has 700 of these posters.
I interviewed two reputable dealers who had purchased stock from Brian. They were convinced the posters were original and that Brian's story was true. They had actually seen the original source rolls.
I took a "long-shot in the dark and searched the 'net for more info. Remarkably, I found an ad from the May 23, 1972 version of the Lima Ohio newspaper proving that local theaters in Lima were giving away original Woodstock posters:
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Woodstock_Style_C_files/Woodstock%20poster%20giveway.jpg)
Based on all the foregoing, I was convinced the "Style C" posters were 1970s originals.
But along came a spider.
In September 2011, MPGrading.com reported that the "Style C" suspected bootleg was printed on paper used beginning in the late 1980s. Accordingly, it was "most likely a bootleg or a commercial poster."
Table 1. Fiber Identification of B-Style
Softwood bleached kraft – Hard Pine (Except Red & Scotch)
Hardwood bleached kraft – Redgum, Sycamore, Yellow-poplar, Blackgum, Maple
Coating flakes are yellowish
Appears to be a Southern Mix
Spot test implies this sample is most consistent with paper from before the late 1980’s.
Table 2. Fiber Identification of C-Style
Softwood bleached kraft – [Spruce and/or Hemlock], Hard Pine (Except Red & Scotch)
Hardwood bleached kraft – Populus spp., Birch
Hardwood bleached sulfite – Populus spp.
Coating flakes are yellowish
Appears to be a Northern Mix
Spot test implies this sample is most consistent with paper from the late 1980’s and after.
*****
As reported on NS4 in 2011: (http://stylec.yuku.com/reply/108890/Woodstock-Style-C)
"Here is a side by side visual comparison to show there is absolutely color differences in the two posters. Under a loop there is nothing detectible. However, the ink used in the style C is very different especially when we placed both posters on a light table. The Colors of the style B stay bold, but when the style C is placed the the light table the colors wash out almost completely. Picture of the light table colors will also be posted shortly."
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u536/HereComesMongo1968/MPA_zpsdqpsug4t.jpg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/HereComesMongo1968/media/MPA_zpsdqpsug4t.jpg.html)
In that thread I pointed out the LPIU logo only was used from 1972-1974 and in 2005 Ha.com had sold a machine-folded Style C (with handwritten C), indicating the Style C posters were also distributed to theaters for lobby use.
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u536/HereComesMongo1968/W-folded-C%202_zpsammedvx3.jpg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/HereComesMongo1968/media/W-folded-C%202_zpsammedvx3.jpg.html)
So that's where I left it when I exited the hobby in 2014.
*****
In 2017 it appears that MPgrading is out of business. I remain convinced that the Style C posters are 1970 originals based on all the evidence. I note that at least one current seller on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Woodstock-Three-Days-of-Peace-and-Music-Documentary-Film-Poster-C-7-1970-/302129077364)is selling another folded Style C:
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u536/HereComesMongo1968/s-l1600_zpsa0woaefi.jpeg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/HereComesMongo1968/media/s-l1600_zpsa0woaefi.jpeg.html)
*****
So what do y'all think?
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Good work, all around. Maybe being a detective is your true calling, Mel. Or a treasure hunter.
A heckuva rollercoaster ride there. It's like a trail of breadcrumbs that leads to the diamond, which then turns out to be a potential fugazi. faint2.gif
I wonder what the deal is with the OG source Brian and how he had and still has hundreds of these. Maybe his story about the theater having this style poster is true, although possibly not as many as he claimed, and then 'someone' made very good fakes from one or more of those originals.
In any case, it's good to know that the MPgrading guy was able to do solid, scientific analysis.
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So I'm putting on my "enthusiastic amateur" authentication hat again.
I won a folded "Style C" Woodstock 1S MP auction cheap via 3rd party from my BF Tom Locust. He apparently has a cache of these bc he's saying he has "2" available, which he also claims for his unlimited stash of bootleg Star Wars:
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK8.jpg)
*****
But HA sold an identical "wilding" folded C in 2005 (https://movieposters.ha.com/itm/musical/woodstock-warner-brothers-1970-one-sheet-27-x-41-the-woodstock-pressbook-encourages-theater-owners-to-acquire-s/a/617-28211.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515):
Woodstock (Warner Brothers, 1970). One Sheet (27" X 41"). The, "Woodstock," pressbook encourages theater owners to acquire several copies of this style "C" poster for "wild posting in your neighborhood." This classic poster from the three-day love fest film, most likely, never appeared in front of the box office, but were seen on buildings and fences all over the city. This glossy stock one sheet has some heavy fold lines, slight edge and fold tears, and a few instances of minor crumpling and faint staining. Fine.
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK7.jpeg)
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK9.jpg)
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK6.jpeg)
*****
It's possible that TL bought them from Brian Pheneger, the Nashville source of the hundreds of rolled C MPs that hit eBay a few years ago. TL definitely bought/resold some of those. But as far as I know BP only had rolled Cs
*****
My folded C is identical to my prior rolled C except that the ink has flaked off in small spots throughout the poster - something I've never seen before - and doesn't have the mysterious serial number on the back like all the rolled Cs. They both have the microscopic, perfectly detailed union logo, which is impossible to recreate digitally:
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK1.JPG)
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK2.JPG)
(http://moviepostercollectors.guide/Storage/WSTOCK3.JPG)
*****
So given everything - the precise folds, perfect union 1970s logo, the 2005 HA sale, the existence of the similar rolled Cs, the relativelysmall demand for Woodstock movie posters - I surmise it's legit. Still the flaking and TL's involvement are concerning. But I got it for $40 so my investment is minimal.