All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Restoration => Topic started by: holiday on March 29, 2011, 11:44:37 PM
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If I glued my poster to a tablecloth, would that be considered linen-backing?
It's sure as shit the same difference to me. I just went through the first round of Bruce's mini/major and forgive me, but it's a bunch of posters that have been ruined by linen-backing when it was not needed. Sure, if a wonderful poster has been significantly damaged by the elements, linen-backing is a great alternative to throwing it in the trash or otherwise losing it forever. But unless the poster really needs work, its senseless to mount the damned thing.
I know there are others out there who feel differently. So, let this be the official linen versus non-linen thread.
Ok, I can breathe now...
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I agree to a point. I prefer unbacked every time. But there really are posters that need/benefit from it.
In fact I'm getting one done shortly, pics will be posted.
I have paid to have 2 done in my life. One was BEAST WITH A MILLION EYES US 1 Sheet, which Dario did.
It had a longish tear, and seeded some touch ups, and a good wash. It was an item I wanted to sell, and I think it paid off. Looked great afterwards, the buyer was very happy.
For my personal collection I don't get anything backed (except I did with the SHIP OF WANTED MEN as seen elsewhere), that was so brittle it fell apart just breathing near it. Now its rarin' to go (planning on framing it soon).
I don't think it ruins posters though, for a poster I want to display, if i could get it CHEAPER than an unbacked I might consider it. As part of my core collection, I'd prefer not, not just because I like the feel of paper, but they are just harder to store.
There was a trend years ago where it was all the rage, I remember on ebay Backed posters would sell for the cost of backing above the value of the poster at least, usually more. Then it seemed to switch and more people wanted to at least buy unbacked and get work done if needed/desired, which is the way to go.
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I will never buy a linenbacked poster unless 1) it is an ultra rare poster that cannot be found in any other shape or form and 2) I see it in person.
I own 7 linenbacked posters, 2 I bought in France (large War of the Worlds and Gone With the Wind), 1 I had linenbacked because it needed it (large yellow French Lawrence of Arabia), 2 I bought from Dan R. because I didn't know better (One From the Heart and Silverado (both intl. versions)), 1 mistake (ET Moon style... in perfect condition before, again didn't know better) and 1 I just sent to Dario (Italian Suspiria) because I want to frame it. And that's it. I do not intend to buy or linenback anything else soon.
T
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I don't know why I feel this way, but the poster seem sullied after being backed. Somehow, it's less than real. It's not what was intended when it was originally released.
I agree that some need to be backed. But, I've reached the point I won't buy anything that's been backed, unless it's an absolute rarity, and then only at the right price. The last thing I bought backed was the advance for Clan of the Cave Bear which is a hideously rare poster. I guess what stuck out with Bruce's current auction is that almost all likely did not need to be backed. Some of the older ad posters probably needed it. But the newer posters that are there certainly did not. It's not a slight against Bruce, to be certain. I'm sure he just picked up a consignor who had a bunch of backed posters to move.
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I just made a thread earlier this week about potentially reversing the linen-back process for exactly the same reason. If the poster isn't fifty years old and barely holding together, there is no reason for it to be linen-backed. I saw a LB Pulp Fiction poster not long ago. That poster is only fifteen years old. It was never even folded. But for some reason, somebody had it linen-backed.
I think linen-backing is miss-sold. I think many novice or simply uninformed collectors think linen-backing a poster immediately increases its value. Simply scrolling through seller websites one comes across older posters that have been linen-backed, usually for no other reason but to remove the fold lines because people are idiots. They see an expensive poster that mentions its been linen-backed and their mind automatically assumes this it's a positive thing.
I don't know anything about how linen-backing has trended but as somebody who has just come into the hobby linen-backing is a sure-fire way to completely destroy the poster for me. I collect mostly modern posters, and every time I see a Raiders or an Empire Strikes Back or a Back to the Future poster linen-backed my brain melts. To me, that's like laminating a trading card or bronzing a Morgan dollar. There is no benefit to linen-backing a poster that isn't half a century old and is literally falling apart and not available otherwise.
I have a friend who just got into poster collecting in the last few months and had a considerable amount of cash to put into a new collection. He was telling me yesterday he couldn't wait for some poster to come in and he was e-mailing a guy to have it linen-backed. I asked why, he said "I thought you were supposed to?".
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And BTW, there is nothing wrong with Bruce auctioning linenbacked posters. It gives me some much needed respite.
woohoo
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Does this issue need to come up every time someone auctions linen backed posters? If you don't like 'em don't buy 'em. Jesus(TM), it's like beating a dead horse.
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And BTW, there is nothing wrong with Bruce auctioning linenbacked posters. It gives me some much needed respite.
woohoo
I couldn't agree more, on both counts.
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Does this issue need to come up every time someone auctions linen backed posters? If you don't like 'em don't buy 'em. Jesus(TM), it's like beating a dead horse.
I think beating a dead horse seriously weakens the value of a horse carcass. I understand some dead horses can benefit from a good beating but overall I don't understand the point or appeal. I can't tell you how often I stumble upon a dead Clydesdale or Mustang and am just about to bid before I realize it's been beaten.
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Does this issue need to come up every time someone auctions linen backed posters? If you don't like 'em don't buy 'em. Jesus(TM), it's like beating a dead horse.
Yes it does. You don't like it, check another thread.
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Does this issue need to come up every time someone auctions linen backed posters? If you don't like 'em don't buy 'em. Jesus(TM), it's like beating a dead horse.
It's a hot poker in my eye when I see it. And, Mr. Drama, it does not come up every time linen posters are auctioned. I don't like 'em. I'm not going to buy 'em.
And, while we're at it, I don't much like you either. I'm going to beat you like a dead horse.
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I don't think anyone here would argue with you about the "just don't buy 'em" rule Louie. That said, I do believe it is a shame when posters get backed needlessly. And if we aren't supposed to bitch about something, what are we doing spending so much time on an internet forum ;D
By the way... Bruce buddy, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start putting up your mini/major items earlier so we can plan ahead for these big purchases! A few weeks or a month would be great. Had I known you would be listing a French 1-panel for In a Lonely Place I likely would have skipped the one I recently won at auction elsewhere!
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/gallery_main//550/french_1p_in_a_lonely_place_linen_LB01141_L.jpg)
And also, wow is that Italian Grand Illusion beautiful!
(http://www.emovieposter.com/images/gallery_main//550/italian_misc_grand_illusion_linen_LB01128_L.jpg)
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Ted, where's my beating-a-dead-horse animation?
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It's a hot poker in my eye when I see it. And, Mr. Drama, it does not come up every time linen posters are auctioned. I don't like 'em. I'm not going to buy 'em.
And, while we're at it, I don't much like you either. I'm going to beat you like a dead horse.
Bring it on, baby!
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Bring it on, baby!
Love ya baby!
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
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heres one, sorry for bad pic. I bought this for less than I'd pay for a unrestored poster, and there is no work done on it that I can see, looks like it was perfect pre linen backing. But I always wanted the poster and it was cheap. I might even just pin it to my wall.
(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff401/aririchards/US%201%20Sheets/P3180206.jpg)
PS - Theiry, My Suspiria 2 Foglio needs backing also. Some paper loss, tears and is brittle. The paper loss is in the black for most parts, I think it would be worth it, unless I find a nice copy some time cheap(ish)
(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff401/aririchards/Italian/suspiria2foglio.jpg)
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I'm going to beat you like a dead horse.
That made me laugh Holiday...too funny
I am considering backing my Django Tatekan so I can frame it. Would backing a tatekan since they come in 2 parts be an exception in our eyes or would you leave it be?
Cj
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you can get it framed without backing.
Also note often backing things in 2 or more pieces the art doesn't match up.
Saw a bad example of this once.
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Thanks for the info Ari. I own zero backed posters. I may buy a backed poster so I can see what it looks and feels like in person.
Cj
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#1 in my opinion, linenbacking a poster that does not need it is devaluing the poster
#2 linenbacking is meant to be for restorative purposes
#3 linenbacking to remove folds is not being restorative
#4 I only get posters linenbacked if they seriously need restoration (and I have about a dozen that fit that description. like a few that are ripped vertically from top to bottom. but one can be framed anyway, so I might not get that one done)
#5 I do not like restored items, but will suffer with them when faced with no other choice on a very rare piece (not just rare)
#6 When as a dealer I have something that would benefit from restoration, I sell it and let someone else do the restoring 99% of the time
#7 I have more than a few pieces framed and hanging that most people would get linenbacked for what I feel is minor restoration
#8 I think most linenbacking is done for stupid reasons
#9 so ask yourself "What would Jesus(tm) do?"
#10 Louie, I don't think that Jesus is (tm)
and before I forget, #11
(http://www.movieposterbid.com/temp/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
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I think beating a dead horse seriously weakens the value of a horse carcass. I understand some dead horses can benefit from a good beating but overall I don't understand the point or appeal. I can't tell you how often I stumble upon a dead Clydesdale or Mustang and am just about to bid before I realize it's been beaten.
I have this problem too deadhorse
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#1 in my opinion, linenbacking a poster that does not need it is devaluing the poster
#2 linenbacking is meant to be for restorative purposes
#3 linenbacking to remove folds is not being restorative
#4 I only get posters linenbacked if they seriously need restoration (and I have about a dozen that fit that description. like a few that are ripped vertically from top to bottom. but one can be framed anyway, so I might not get that one done)
#5 I do not like restored items, but will suffer with them when faced with no other choice on a very rare piece (not just rare)
#6 When as a dealer I have something that would benefit from restoration, I sell it and let someone else do the restoring 99% of the time
#7 I have more than a few pieces framed and hanging that most people would get linenbacked for what I feel is minor restoration
#8 I think most linenbacking is done for stupid reasons
#9 so ask yourself "What would Jesus(tm) do?"
#10 Louie, I don't think that Jesus is (tm)
and before I forget, #11
(http://www.movieposterbid.com/temp/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
Excellent, glad to know where you stand, Rich. I am making a chart on everyone who has replied to this thread with their personal preference so when the issue comes up again next week, I'll just post the info so we know where everyone stands on the issue.
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Excellent, glad to know where you stand, Rich. I am making a chart on everyone who has replied to this thread with their personal preference so when the issue comes up again next week, I'll just post the info so we know where everyone stands on the issue.
laugh1
For the record then....
I am anti backing posters that dont need it.
I will now go and throw away my six linen backed posters. NOT!
I fear I am still not detered me from "accidentally" geting more.
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OK, but at some price the linenbacked poster will have some value. Don't tell me you wouldn't jump on a linenbacked 32 Dracula at say $1k.
So, just for fun we are looking at 4 semi-rare posters at auction. #1 is VG-F, #2 is fair-P and unrestored, #3 is unrestored and linenbacked and #4 is restored and Linenbacked.
The VG-F poster has been selling for $1k. How would you bid the other 3?
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Most people know I dont care much for movies - I rarely see a movie. The posters I collect are for the art. I dont like the folds in my art. Apart from the parasite on rats posters I collect (Mex lobbies), I also collect a lot of large multisheet posters - 6 sht, 3sht, 4F. If I had the $, I'd back all those multi sheets.
I'd add an additional point to Rich's list
#11 linenbacking is used for conservation
Have you ripped a poster? I have... In hindsight I'd have preferred the poster on linen in one piece than having a gut wrenching rip thru it. Not saying back every poster to prevent rips, but you could back some of your fav's.
It also protects from further foxing on the folds (he says clutching at straws)
Actually I'll add another one
#12 more likely to be displayed
They handle better and is easier to pin to a wall. Also folds removed looks better to me and the average visitor.
Also note often backing things in 2 or more pieces the art doesn't match up.
Saw a bad example of this once.
I suspect displaying a folded multi piece posters is more likely to be misaligned than a backed one, unless they are pressed flat and joined closely together (ie stick pin holes in them under tension or tape them aka Mel). If held under friction they likely will just drop. Yeah, backing is likely to cause some misalignment as it is comes down to the skill of the backer - using timers accurately/accounting for the paper grain direction, patience... but most misalignments can be easily hidden with watersoluable pencil touchup. The bigger problem to me is color mismatch between panels which is independent of backing or not.
To me a backed folded poster looks fantastic!
I buy posters for me to enjoy, not planning ahead for their resale value. Impact on resale value to me of a backed poster is not significant enough for me to worry about.
P.S. Would I back every poster? No!...
Just every folded poster (haha)
(http://www.mysterycorp.com/temp/devil_2.gif)
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Excellent, glad to know where you stand, Rich. I am making a chart on everyone who has replied to this thread with their personal preference so when the issue comes up again next week, I'll just post the info so we know where everyone stands on the issue.
sm1
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I wouldn't spend a $1 on the 1932 Dracula.................Now the 1931 Dracula is a different mater ;)
From what I have seen, linen backed posters tend to go for a little more money than unbacked. I'd like to bring Bruce in if he's about, as he may have better info on this. If I'm right, why is this??
I am in the only if the poster is in need of it Camp, and no posters after 1980 should be backed, why waste the money just buy a better copy...
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I wouldn't spend a $1 on the 1932 Dracula.................Now the 1931 Dracula is a different mater ;)
From what I have seen, linen backed posters tend to go for a little more money than unbacked. I'd like to bring Bruce in if he's about, as he may have better info on this. If I'm right, why is this??
I am in the only if the poster is in need of it Camp, and no posters after 1980 should be backed, why waste the money just buy a better copy...
I think they go for more because the whole linen-backing process costs money. Since they're putting $50 or more in some cases into having the poster backed, people with LB posters think the poster absorbs this value.
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I wouldn't spend a $1 on the 1932 Dracula.................Now the 1931 Dracula is a different mater ;)
Ouch. What can I say? I've been staring at Airbus requirements all week and making sure everything is mapped. All my eyes can see is tiny little arrows :-[
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They handle better and is easier to PIN to a wall.
*faints*
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Since they're putting $50 or more in some cases into having the poster backed, people with LB posters think the poster absorbs this value.
If someone is only putting $50 in linen-backing, I definitely don't want it! Most quality restorers will charge at least $100 just for backing, not including restoration and/or labor. Usually a 1-sheet works out to about $150-$200.
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*faints*
Actually pinning a backed poster to the wall is not really that bad at all. The excess linen around the poster allows for this sort of thing.
A nice alternative to framing a three or six sheet me thinks but you have to sure noone is going to spill beer or something worse on the unframed and naked poster!
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If someone is only putting $50 in linen-backing, I definitely don't want it! Most quality restorers will charge at least $100 just for backing, not including restoration and/or labor. Usually a 1-sheet works out to about $150-$200.
I think I knew that. I don't know why I put $50. Sometimes I try to come up with rational numbers on the fly and wind up with low ones. The other day a friend of mine was talking about buying a new car and I said something like "Buy used, buying new would cost you over a thousand dollars". Needless to say there was an awkward moment of silence.
Actually pinning a backed poster to the wall is not really that bad at all. The excess linen around the poster allows for this sort of thing.
A nice alternative to framing a three or six sheet me thinks but you have to sure noone is going to spill beer or something worse on the unframed and naked poster!
*refrains from fainting*
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I am in the only if the poster is in need of it Camp, and no posters after 1980 should be backed, why waste the money just buy a better copy...
I am with you on this, Paul and am of the same thought. Post 1980 posters are so prolific that it makes zero sense to back a copy that has been ripped or damaged in some way. Just pick up another that is bound to come along.
I had 3 pieces backed-- a 1920's French one panel, a 1927 pre-war Belgian and a 1936 French (this one is an odd size--it measures about 27x39 if i remember). The one panel had some fold separations and the paper was brittle and needed to be washed, too, as much of the background area is white. I was afraid to unfold it multiple times to even look at it. The other french had weakening fold areas and needed to be de-acidified. The Belgian was delicate and printed on thinner paper. So my reasoning was from a conservation and preservation standpoint, only.
I had no restoration or painting done, leaving them as is. I just didnt want them to eventually fall apart, so opted to have them backed.
Jeff
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My problem is, I have 4/5 posters that "need" backing, but I keep spending the money on other posters... ;D I must get them done, in fact my Belated new years resolution is to have them done by Christmas. ;)
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Actually pinning a backed poster to the wall is not really that bad at all. The excess linen around the poster allows for this sort of thing.
A nice alternative to framing a three or six sheet me thinks but you have to sure noone is going to spill beer or something worse on the unframed and naked poster!
I currently have my R68 Fistful of Dollars Italian 4-foglio up on the wall with binder clips while I'm piecing together framing... I couldn't wait to get it on the wall!
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Ted, where's my beating-a-dead-horse animation?
Confucius say: "Beating a dead horse is much easier than branding a live one." wynk
(http://www.mudtrap.com/images/kickasshorse39.gif)
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Confucius say: "Beating a dead horse is much easier than branding a live one." wynk
(http://www.mudtrap.com/images/kickasshorse39.gif)
Ouch! When I was 7, I got kicked by a horse just like that (not branding him, just whacking him in the ass with a stick), and it almost killed me. Thanks for the memories!
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I got kicked by a horse just like that (not branding him, just whacking him in the ass with a stick), and it almost killed me. Thanks for the memories!
Whackin' him with a stick, eh? That'll learn ya....
(http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu12/brude2000/GIFS/hzfjctvyo57xv181jefi-1.gif)
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Whackin' him with a stick, eh? That'll learn ya....
(http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu12/brude2000/GIFS/hzfjctvyo57xv181jefi-1.gif)
Man " I - told - you - no - Linenbacking"
Horse "Fuck off"
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Excellent, glad to know where you stand, Rich. I am making a chart on everyone who has replied to this thread with their personal preference so when the issue comes up again next week, I'll just post the info so we know where everyone stands on the issue.
Don't forget to put me in the "Linen still sucks" column on the spreadsheet.
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Those look really nice Mel.
Can you share what restoration was done on each?
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Those look really nice Mel.
Can you share what restoration was done on each?
I specifically requested minimal restoration on the French Line, just slight airbrushing of the spots on the face where the NSS stamp showed through. Not sure about the others, as I bought them already linen-backed.
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Whackin' him with a stick, eh? That'll learn ya....
(http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu12/brude2000/GIFS/hzfjctvyo57xv181jefi-1.gif)
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!!!!!!! my friggin god man thats AWESOME im pissing my pants !!!
and im new and back a poster NO!!!!
lololololol hard to type when your rolling on the floor laughuing out loud lololololo
nighty night !!!!!! lolololololo
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Sometimes they need it, and cripes when they do and you have a good restorer they look GREAT.
Depends on motivation I guess, for reselling Id say no, but if you love a poster and it needs help, then go for it, and PIN IT TO YOUR WALL.
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Actually pinning a backed poster to the wall is not really that bad at all. The excess linen around the poster allows for this sort of thing.
A nice alternative to framing a three or six sheet me thinks but you have to sure noone is going to spill beer or something worse on the unframed and naked poster!
but waht about being exposed to air and light ?wont that hurt them ?if cased in glass then only light an issue no ?
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but waht about being exposed to air and light ?wont that hurt them ?if cased in glass then only light an issue no ?
Well I don't think air is going to hurt them - afterall trees REALLY like carbon dioxide! ;)
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unless your talking about a valuable and genuinely rare poster (ahem Metropolis) who cares? Enjoy them, they want to be on walls not boxes.
And BTW not that I care, but behind glass, there is humidity to worry about and moisture.
IMHO of course.
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LOL , my linen backed posters looks like a buncho sky scrapers in the room bed1
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I am in the minimal linenbacking camp myself.
I think too many folks are into the "they have to look perfect" camp which causes posters to be linenbacked when the only defect is a minor crossfold separation. I would only linenback when the poster is falling apart and is worth the cost of linenbacking. I guess I am cheap, but the poster had better appreciate in value at least the cost of the restoration.
I am not a purist though. I have purchased linenbacked posters and will continue to bid on them. However, I will not pay a premium over a non backed poster of similar condition.
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I am not a purist though. I have purchased linenbacked posters and will continue to bid on them.
This is where I am at. I much prefer em non backed but I love the seven I do have.
They do seem to sell when they are offered. Someone out there likes them.
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The odd thing here is, We all say that we prefer un-back posters. Yet Linen-backed one's always fetch more money.... Is there something we are not telling each other. ;D
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Maybe a high proportion of linen-backed posters are purchased by 'non-poster-collectors' who find them easier to handle than a flimsy piece of paper? Maybe someone who is accustomed to purchasing, say, oil-paintings on canvas finds a linen-backed poster sits more comfortably with their collection? In other words, maybe the reaction of members of this forum to the linen or non-linen debate would be different from that of many of the high-bidders at a Christie's auction - especially the newcomers to the poster purchasing arena? No specific information to support these theories - just thinking out loud.
Best wishes,
Terry - www.quadbod.co.uk
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To keep a poster from deteriorating, I think linen is fantastic.
To put linen on a poster that is rolled and basically doesn't need it seems frivolous and a waste of money, but different strokes for different folks.
To dismiss linen with a clean sweep of "LINEN SUCKS" seems a bit silly.
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Seems to me the thinking years ago was that linen backing was the way to go and put a premium on a title, where as the newer collectors shun it and put a premium on unbacked posters.
I relate it to the comic market, not really a 1:1 compare, but... restoration was the end all be all for old beat up books for awhile, but no one wants a restored book now.
Massively rare pieces obviously are the exception.
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I have no problem with linen. But I've seen it on to many posters that "value wise" it makes no sense. Or as has been said before on a post 80's poster. Even worse are the 90's ds poster that have been backed, that just sends a red flag up for me.
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To keep a poster from deteriorating, I think linen is fantastic.
To put linen on a poster that is rolled and basically doesn't need it seems frivolous and a waste of money, but different strokes for different folks.
To dismiss linen with a clean sweep of "LINEN SUCKS" seems a bit silly.
Indeed.
Ultimately, it is what an individual collector wants to do (referring to the backing of newer, folded posters), in trying to diminish or erase fold creases or lines. I am of the thought, too, that less is more. If a brittle, fragile poster can be saved thru conservative backing, then I am all for that. The alternative is ending up with a pile of dried, flaked paper, in many cases. That being said, (IMHO), i think that (even older) posters that are overpainted or made to look new is doing a disservice to that poster, when much of the art is buried beneath a thin layer of paint, in order to make it sparkle and shine.
Many want or desire this look, we all know that. Personally, the few posters I have had backed were left as is, with only the most minor of cross fold separation touch ups on one french panel, from the 1920s. I like to see the "life" a poster has lived, so small border nicks, chips etc don't really bother me. Same goes for an older poster whose 60-70 year old border may have tanned with age. I would prefer to leave it, rather than having it be given an airbrushed "face lift."
Jeff
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i c thanx for the info im learing lots so backing hmmmm still no
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I recently bought a poster that was backed "european style" - so no touch ups, the poster was simply backed as it was not in the greatest of shape. I guess the "american" way (?) means fixin' the poster so it looks like its original self.
So the euro backing process did "save" my poster (an old WW1 poster of course) and now it can be handled and displayed, but im sort of bummed out that it did not get some of the touch ups (e.g., washing etc) that really would have made it displayable in the end. In fact, the backing almost makes the defects stand out even more if that makes any sense.
I've never had issues with "character defects" but I guess I am debating the whole euro vs american thing now...I've been wanting to get a poster euro-backed by a local restorer here, but I'm worried I might be dissapointed with the results and it will be too late by then. Maybe I should suck it up and ask for the full restoration?
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#3 is unrestored and linenbacked
Isnt that considered "European style", Im curious how one would value or bid on that also?