All Poster Forum
Common Poster Subjects => Auction House, Dealer & Other Seller Experiences => Topic started by: Dread_Pirate_Mel on January 30, 2010, 01:43:49 PM
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A lot of heated opinions on this board about the two largest auctioneers of movie posters (other than Ebay). Below I've tried to present a fair and balanced comprehensive comparison of the two. Which one do you prefer and why? Which one do you buy from more often? What facts (rather than just pure opinions) can you point to if you disagree? What other comparisons would be helpful?
(Full disclosure: I have no connection to either. I've purchased somewhat more from Emovie (maybe $1000+?) and about $500 from Heritage over the last year.)
FINAL SALE PRICE:
Far and away the most important criteria to buyers is the final sale price.
Because Heritage sells 25,000 movie posters per year and Emovie sells 2-3 times more, it would be extremely-time consuming to prepare a statistically valid comparison between the two. You’d have examine least several hundred apples-to-apples price comparisons (same size, same quality, same poster). This is also complicated because Emovie’s past sales records are less detailed than Heritage. Also, Heritage inexplicably appears to repeat sales in listings.
I took a stab at it by randomly picking 10 popular posters and checking their 10 most recent sale prices from both sites. (I did NOT "pre-check" any of the prices to reach a pre-determined result.) I used Emovie’s Image Archive to make sure that the posters were the same (no internationals, no variants, no large/small size) but did NOT correct for folded, unfolded, linen-backed, condition, etc, so this comparison is very basic and non-scientific.
Emovie “won” 8 of the 10 comparisons and the average price was $318 for Heritage and $271 for Emovie, a 17% difference. However, the prices varied considerably sometimes for obvious reasons (condition) and sometimes unclear. (Why did a regular Pulp Fiction sell at Emovie for $650?)
Blues Brothers (reg US 27x41)
Her 151
Emovie 92
Clan Cave (10 sold at Emovie, 6 sold at Her)
Her: 125
Emovie: 109
Empire Strikes Back (“GWTW” style)
Her: 258
Emovie: 206
ET Bike (10 sold at Heritage, only 3 sold at Emovie)
Her: 1081
Emovie: 873
Goldfinger (27x41, excluding 1980 restrike)
Her: 866
Emovie: 671
Pulp Fiction regular (excluding “lucky strike”)
Her: 153
Emovie: 248
Raiders Lost Ark (27x41 US regular, not 1982rr or restrike)
Her: 150
Emovie: 116
Shaft
Her: 71
Emovie: 61
Star Wars Style A
Her: 278
Emovie: 261
Supervixens
Her: 55
Emovie: 73
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MINIMUM PRICE:
Emovie superior. Heritage sets a minimum price of $16 per poster.
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HERITAGE BUYER’S FEE:
Unlike Emovie, Heritage charges a 19.5% “buyer’s premium.” The BP is not reflected in the general listing but is clearly disclosed when you actually bid, so it’s not “disguised” for the most part. Since it is disclosed prior to each bid, it’s uncertain whether the BP truly “inflates” prices. (I suspect it does to some extent, otherwise they wouldn’t charge it.) Both Christie’s and Sotheby’s also charge buyers premiums.
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HERITAGE “SHILLING”:
Heritage has been accused recently of inflating its auction prices through “shill” bidding.
Its Auction Terms, which bidders must accept, clearly allow Heritage and its affiliates to bid on items. Heritage admits that it does bid on its own auctions – and wins 1-2% of the time - but claims (1) that the bids are preset prior to the start and (2) are “good faith” purchases for its own inventory.
The lawsuit states: “Heritage bids without the intent of buying to drive up the prices of items. Withdrawing bids because someone else failed to bid higher are considered shill bidding. In theory, an auction house bidding in its own auctions could bid with the intent of driving up the price and then withdraw the bid if someone doesn't outbid them before the auction ends so it doesn't win.”
Heritage states: “Shill bidding is illegal. When we bid, whether in our own auctions or other
firms' auctions, we do so only when we are ready and willing to purchase and
pay for the item. Moreover, our policy is that Heritage buyers must place their
proxy bids on-line PRIOR to the auction and they may not raise their bids once
the auction has started.”
Steve Bruno, the government relations officer at the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation, says Heritage is allowed to bid in its own auctions -- even if it uses a false name -- provided that it's announced. "As long as they've said that their people will be bidding, then they're allowed to do that."
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WEBSITE QUALITY:
Heritage is clearly superior – it appears extremely professional and modern and is easy to navigate. Heritage also offers the “live auctions” online.
Emovie appears dated, “texty,” and has inconsistent design, etc. However, it functions well and has a lot of useful information. It reminds me of Craigslist – function over form.
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SHIPPING
Pricing: Emovie superior. If you bought 10 rolled posters for $500 at Heritage, you’d owe $18.25 but only a flat $10 to Emovie.
Quality: Tie. I’ve received 10 or so packages from both and the quality of the packaging from both is excellent.
Instruction clarity: Heritage superior. Easy to understand and follow. Emovie’s instructions are byzantine, excessively detailed, and unnecessarily include multiple fonts and colors.
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PAST PRICES:
Heritage is superior. It’s very easy to run and sort searches and it retains the full-size picture of the poster. Emovie confusingly splits past prices into a “sales archive” and “image archive” (which shows only a small picture of the poster sold) and omits the condition of the poster sold.
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EMAILS/ADVERTISING:
Heritage superior in my opinion. Typically, Emovie missives are extremely verbose – with endless text listings – often intermingled with sales hyperbole (“BUY NOW - prices have never been THIS LOW!”)
I prefer Heritage's “soft sell” approach, i.e. here’s a sampling of what we are selling, check us out. I also prefer its follow-up “trackedlot” messages.
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Mel...that looks like a fair amount of work.
Just a heads up - in your last image your e-mail address is not redacted...
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This analysis, is somewhat helpful, but VERY "unscientific", to say the least. Among other problems with the methodology used, there is no telling which posters at Heritage sold to themselves, and there is no telling if the high bidders ever paid, so all their results must be taken with a big grain of salt.
But enough of the facts are available here and elsewhere. Those who prefer one or the other can either bid in one or both. I think anyone who spends some time on either site can quickly draw their own conclusions. as to which is preferable and why
Bruce
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I've bought a bunch of posters from Heritage, but I'm starting to be a little tired of all those fees. It's not enough that they charge 20% BP (which is already outrageous), but I know have to deal with a CA tax. What is that, 10%. So now I have to pay 30% on top of the price?
I was looking at some of their March Signature items, and I'm certainly interested by a few, but the 30% makes it ridiculous. So I will not bid.
Does HA also charge the seller?
T
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One thing I am tuned in to here is the shill bidding issue. Suffice to say that since this topic was last raised in another thread regarding Heritage's allowing affiliates, employees and other related folks to bid. That really pissed me off, but it was because I thought - wrongfully - that this was done surreptitiously. As Mel points out, it is not hidden. It's disclosed in the rules. That's all I ever ask - tell me the rules up front, then I can decide whether to participate.
I think Bruce's reaction that your approach is "very unscientific" is a bit harsh, because you did a good job given the sparse data you had access to. But, I agree with Bruce's final resolution -- to each his own. Personally? I'm a poster ho -- I'll go where the good poster is, and when I find that good poster, I don't give a damn about the interface, the archives, or anything else for that matter, other than obtaining the poster at the best possible price. I don't freak like some over the buyer's premium. The only thing this means is that I'll never truly buy a $1 poster at Heritage, but I will at Bruce or at Rich's site or even on ebay for that matter. So what. If the poster is worth $1 plus the minimum bp, or the final hammer price knowing that there's also the bp to be added, that's fine with me.
Heritage's shipping is pretty damned good, but I agree that Bruce's people handle things with more TLC. I've had some good posters mangled by Heritages shipping department - it had nothing to do with the material and everything to do with idiot of the moment who didn't care that what he was packing was cared about by the person who bought it. But, that was only one time - however bad it was. Every other time over the years Heritage's packing has been as strong as Bruce's, though a hell of a lot more expensive to be sure.
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I've bought a bunch of posters from Heritage, but I'm starting to be a little tired of all those fees. It's not enough that they charge 20% BP (which is already outrageous), but I know have to deal with a CA tax. What is that, 10%. So now I have to pay 30% on top of the price?
I was looking at some of their March Signature items, and I'm certainly interested by a few, but the 30% makes it ridiculous. So I will not bid.
Does HA also charge the seller?
T
I love you, but I don't understand this my friend. You simply take into account the top price you will bid, knowing that you have to add the vig on top of it. Why is this such a problem?
I guess I'm used to buying in live auctions for other collectibles like art glass and porcelains where a buyer's premium and seller's premium are quite normal and expected. Same thing - bid knowing you will have to add the bp on top of the final hammer price.
You're just cheap. That's really it, isn't it.
Are you going to the Oscars on Sunday?
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I noticed today that if you click the "?" button this pops up and states that "By law, consignors may still bid under certain conditions, but they are responsible for paying the full Buyer's Premium and Seller's Commission if they do."
I wonder if that's true?
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I love you, but I don't understand this my friend. You simply take into account the top price you will bid, knowing that you have to add the vig on top of it. Why is this such a problem?
The problem is that I'm spending 30% extra for no reason, that's the problem.
And yes, I'm cheap, but it's not a problem.
And no, I'm not going to the Academy Awards this year. I was so bored last year, I'm going to pass. Also, I wasn't invited anyway. But I'm going to a really cool party. Too bad I can't drink (LA Marathon's coming up).
Ass.
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(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/hhrussell/kissmyassbumlick.gif)
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I've bought a bunch of posters from Heritage, but I'm starting to be a little tired of all those fees. It's not enough that they charge 20% BP (which is already outrageous), but I know have to deal with a CA tax. What is that, 10%. So now I have to pay 30% on top of the price?
I was looking at some of their March Signature items, and I'm certainly interested by a few, but the 30% makes it ridiculous. So I will not bid.
Does HA also charge the seller?
T
I wish it was different myself, but every auction house charges a Buyer's Premium and applicable taxes: Sotheby's (http://www.sothebys.com/help/faq/faq_duringauction.html#a03), Christie's (http://www.christies.com/features/guides/buying/buyers-premium.aspx). HA charges the seller a 10% commission
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We charge ZERO buyer's premium, and have NO hidden costs.
Bruce
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Mel
Here is the full text you are referring to:
"13. Notice of the consignor’s liberty to place bids on his lots in the Auction is hereby made in accordance with Article 2 of the Texas Business and Commercial Code. A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS. ”Minimum Bids” are generally posted online several days prior to the Auction closing. For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
It does not say that there is any limit to how high the "minimum bids" may be, and therefore they could place sky high "minimums" on any and all lots (way over the estimate), and then wait to see what absentee bids they get, and then lower the minimum to match the absentee bids, and they would have in effect shill bid that person, and it would be 100% legal (if I am understanding their convoluted language correctly)!
What do you think, Mel?
Bruce
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really should just have a reserve, trouble is with Shilling, legit buyers get "auction fever" and don't want to lose, so might go higher than they would, if theres a reserve, the would be buyer might back out, its the thrill of winning.
I remember in my early ebay days, spending hours in bidding wars, after a certain amount of time and experience I realised it was stupid, and gave it up. BID an extra $5, then they bid, then again, etc etc.
Snipe your max and forget.
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Mel
Here is the full text you are referring to:
"13. Notice of the consignor’s liberty to place bids on his lots in the Auction is hereby made in accordance with Article 2 of the Texas Business and Commercial Code. A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS. ”Minimum Bids” are generally posted online several days prior to the Auction closing. For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
It does not say that there is any limit to how high the "minimum bids" may be, and therefore they could place sky high "minimums" on any and all lots (way over the estimate), and then wait to see what absentee bids they get, and then lower the minimum to match the absentee bids, and they would have in effect shill bid that person, and it would be 100% legal (if I am understanding their convoluted language correctly)!
What do you think, Mel?
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I really think that these issues are part of what come up in the auction context. I don't think there is any way to guarantee that someone won't register under a second username just for the purposes of bidding up his wares. While I understand the hypothetical situation you've posted, I haven't seen any evidence that such a scheme has been put in effect by anyone. Moreover, I don't get how even if it were more realistic, that the minimum bid on an item would be listed as $50,000, yet an absentee bidders puts in a bid for $25,000 notwithstanding the minimum bud. That just sounds like someone who's got nothing else to do, sorta like the folks in your auction who bid $1 knowing that 99.99% of the time they will not get it for a buck. They bid just for the purpose of catching you with your pants down with a power outtage or something that knocks your system out. Or, they bid just for shits and giggles knowing they will be outbid, but happy to pay a buck if something falls through the cracks.
Anyway, whether it be you, Heritage, MoviePosterBid, Ebay or whatever other site might be out there, there is some form of abuse that could be concocted on a real or theoretical basis by someone who's bent on committing fraud. I think this all boils down to the character of the people we deal with. I have known you for years, and I would not say that you engage in misconduct, but that's based only on what I've seen over the years. The same holds true for Heritage. I've been buying from them for years as well, and while the hammer prices can be higher, they can also be lower than expected, even considering the bp. Heritage has too much at stake to sully it's reputation by shilling in the strictest sense of the term - having an insider bid the item up with the goal of raising the price and with no intent of winning it. Same goes for MPB. Ebay - well, it's ebay. It all happens over there.
I've been watching this thread and others for some time now. I think everyone has played nicely, even the competitors. But so far, the only one that's come up with any facts one way or another has been Mel, our super-sleuth.
I have done some of my own private investigating regarding the claims originally raised against Heritage, because those claims really got to me. After doing so, however, I am convinced that there is no shilling. I've seen sales data from a number of auctions, and those data do not support the theory that a shill is out there working for Heritage.
There's a bid difference between what could be and what is in this or any business. Hell, you could say that I'm a liar just because I'm a lawyer, and that wouldn't be either fair or true. Someone with no knowledge could just as easily say that any of the auction houses shill, yet have no proof of that. Accusations like these are serious and damaging to reputation. They should be discussed very carefully and the facts investigated just as carefully.
I was in court today - oral argument before the Fourth District Court of Appeal here in West Palm Beach. After I was done, I stayed to watch an former law school professor and appellate lawyer extraordinaire Bruce Rogow argue an appeal on behalf of Don King who is in litigation with ESPN over a story the agency did that did not paint Don in a sweet light, to say the least. The issue being discussed was what duty did ESPN have to investigate the facts such that it was not subject to King's defamation suit. The answer is that they must do an investigation if they have a subjective doubt as to whether the information being reported is true.
Now, that case involves a public figure versus a news agency, and thus the issues fall squarely into the First Amendment free speech law which provides that actual malice must be established before one can sue the news agency for a published falsehood. I question whether a big auction house like Heritage or Emovieposter.com is sufficiently in the public eye to warrant application of a heightened standard of review. But, the duty to investigate the facts falls squarely on anyone who would make accusations against either of them that they engage in shilling or some other form of fraudulent activity.
Here's the purpose of my diatribe -- let's remember that we are all people on this side of the keyboard. Be sensitive to that because I question whether some of the things that are said on these boards would be said in a face to face conversation or in a group setting where the participants are meeting in person. This is not censorship. It's common sense.
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And to note there is a portion, just like myself, of who do not care what you call it. Call it Heritage's right to bid their own material or call it a lessor form of shill bidding -- Heritage bidding their own material at any capacity is a self interest fueled conflict I elect not to compete with. NOTE: A conflict that Bruce chooses not to impose on collectors.
Why is this? Why do Bruce and Phil not work up a couple of provisions in the emovie user agreement to legally allow Bruce and Phil to kick back at the PC and bid their own auctions? Why is Bruce not doing what Heritage is doing? Why doesn't Bruce impose a universally disliked and useless buyers premium fee? He doesn't impose these things because both are, ultimately, less than forthright practices no matter what we want to call them, how we want to categorize them and no matter who else is doing it.
Heritage reserves the right to keep bids touched-up and consignors pleased. Heritage reserves the right to ensure they don't take a big loss on an important client's consignment. Heritage ensures their right to place an invisible "reserve limit" by bidding their own material so not to discourage bidders by imposing a literal "reserve". By doing these things, they reserve the right to make more money for their consignors and themselves. If the fine print provisions don't bother you that's fine but Heritage reserves the right to "bump" bids internally whether they have your proxy value before their eyes or not. I still bid rarities on Heritage through a friend but I no longer hold an account or bid there regularly do to too many instances of maxed bids for my liking. It's a personal choice as always. eMovie and Heritage really aren't comparable in my opinion. In my view, emovie is a business designed around collectors and Heritage a business designed around Heritage. Bruce elects to not interfere with bidding for a reason, because as "the house" it's the right thing to do. What Sotherby's, Christies and Heritage do doesn't matter or make it right.
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"due to too many instances of maxed bids for my liking"
This is the crux of the issue. Over the years I have heard this 100 or more times. I posted about a fellow who place 11 "odd" priced bids, and got EVERY one for EXACTLY his maximum. One of the most amazing coincidences ever? Hmmm...
They make it very clear that bidders bid on their own items, the "house" bids on almost all items, and that reserves can be anything they want (including over the estimates).
But if you don't mind bidding in such an environment, more power to you.
Bruce
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In the end, the bidder pays what he/she wants to pay, and no more. I'm having a hard time understanding what the problem is. If I place a max bid at $100 for an item, presumably I'm happy to pay $100 for the item. Is the argument that it's not fair and that I should have paid less? That makes no sense.
But then again, I am one who would love to see live auctions go out the window and silent auctions take over. Simply put your best price out there. Whoever has the highest best price wins. Really simple. I can't stand waiting a week only to see the real bidding occur within the final hours. That goes for all the auction houses out there.
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There’s an Australian Auction house, which I on occasion place bids, via email, they are in another state than me, and after 10+ years, every time I win, it’s the exact same as my high bid, I contacted them, and asked, they said I had someone bidding on my behalf and did start at the bottom and wait until my max was met. I think the auctioneer, started bidding at my max, no takers I win, anyone else, pays more. They win.
Not even talking about valuable items, just always seemed funny, that if I place a bid via email of max $32 then it sells for $32 etc
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Holiday, Holiday, HOLIDAY!
I don't care if they want to sell things for high prices and don't want to sell them for under a high price.
It is all the pretense that I (and others) do care about.
In actuality, the "auctions" are really a "submit a bid and we'll decide if we'll accept it" retail offers masquerading as auctions.
When you go to Tiffany's and find a cool ring you like, do they say, "Let's start the bidding at a dollar" and then go through a huge rigmarole that ends with you either paying their price, or you getting told you were "outbid", and then the next time you go there, the same ring is there, and you say, "How much do you want for it now?" and they say,"Let's start the bidding at a dollar" and then the same thing happens again and again until finally someone pays their price?
No, they just say, "The ring is $25,000", and you either say "I'll take it" or "Too rich for my blood", and that's that. And AFTER you say, "I'll take it", they don't say, "Oh by the way, did you see the tiny sign in the far corner that explains that '$25,000' actually means '$25,000, plus $5,000 more"?
Let all auctions just be open and honest, and state the real asking price, and quit playing games.
Of course, if they did that, they might have trouble getting consignments, and getting buyers, so maybe they better stay as they are.
Bruce
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Holiday, Holiday, HOLIDAY!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I need one, not you, well a visit would be nice, but the vacation style.
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No, they just say, "The ring is $25,000", and you either say "I'll take it" or "Too rich for my blood", and that's that. And AFTER you say, "I'll take it", they don't say, "Oh by the way, did you see the tiny sign in the far corner that explains that '$25,000' actually means '$25,000, plus $5,000 more"?
Heritage hardly hides the fact they charge a 19.5% buyer's premium. It says as much right below where you place your bid. Once you enter a bid, HA shows you your bid and your bid with the BP before they ask you to confirm said bid. If someone isn't aware they'll be charged a BP, then they're either blind or retarded and shouldn't be bidding in the first place. HA may be a lot of things, but they're not surreptitious with disclosing what they charge
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That point has been made many, many times on these boards, Dr. H. "But the BP is right in front of your nose just factor it in to your bid". Even slightly experienced collectors know this very well and have for years. You and I recognize and factor in inflated shipping when buying on ebay just the same.
We have heard the "it's right in front of your nose " mention countless times. The question is why does Heritage (and Christies, Sotherbys) use a buyer's premium, Dr. H? Moving past the fact, if it's possible, that you, I and most agree the BP is in plain sight, why is the BP used? Surely there is a reason Heritage uses it. What is that reason as you see it?
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It didn't used to be that way. It was only lots of loud complaining that got the buyers premiums prominently posted. Next they need to post what the real reserves are, and when "house bidders" are bidding, and which lots are owned by "the house". The answers to these questions may surprise many of you!
Bruce
P.S. The purpose of the buyers premium is to deceive the SELLER not the buyer! They can say, "We only charge 15%", when someone goes to consign, but that seller will likely not know they are getting an additional 20% from the buyer, making the effective charge around 35% (by comparison, eMoviePoster.com charges 20% on over $1,000 items).
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It didn't used to be that way. It was only lots of loud complaining that got the buyers premiums prominently posted. Next they need to post what the real reserves are, and when "house bidders" are bidding, and which lots are owned by "the house". The answers to these questions may surprise many of you!
Bruce
P.S. The purpose of the buyers premium is to deceive the SELLER not the buyer! They can say, "We only charge 15%", when someone goes to consign, but that seller will likely not know they are getting an additional 20% from the buyer, making the effective charge around 35% (by comparison, eMoviePoster.com charges 20% on over $1,000 items).
I do agree with Bruce on this, as far as I know. The buyer's premium allows the house to shift the commission it earns to the buyer and the seller, rather than the seller bearing the weight of the entire commission. Again, I don't get worked up about buyer's premiums because I've become used to them in auctions in other collectibles areas that i collect in. While I get that some may be offended by the use of a buyer's premium, the answer is really "don't buy from them". If you're a seller, then you're happy that you have to give up less of your sale to the house. As Ari would say, if you like, then participate. If you don't, then don't. I just don't see it as a problem. It's a choice.
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That point has been made many, many times on these boards, Dr. H. "But the BP is right in front of your nose just factor it in to your bid". Even slightly experienced collectors know this very well and have for years. You and I recognize and factor in inflated shipping when buying on ebay just the same.
We have heard the "it's right in front of your nose " mention countless times. The question is why does Heritage (and Christies, Sotherbys) use a buyer's premium, Dr. H? Moving past the fact, if it's possible, that you, I and most agree the BP is in plain sight, why is the BP used? Surely there is a reason Heritage uses it. What is that reason as you see it?
Because they can, pure and simple. Heritage used to charge 15% BP, then they raised it to 19.5% (I believe it's 15% on certain auctions). People complained (rightly so), but until there's a precipitous drop in bidders and consignments, it'll stay the same. It's like any industry, they'll try and wring every last nickel out of buyers that they can. I don't bid on HA much because of the 19.5% VIG. I've won one lot (two movie poster books) in over two years from them. As long as people have all the information at their disposal, they can choose to do as they please with their money
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That point has been made many, many times on these boards, Dr. H. "But the BP is right in front of your nose just factor it in to your bid". Even slightly experienced collectors know this very well and have for years. You and I recognize and factor in inflated shipping when buying on ebay just the same.
We have heard the "it's right in front of your nose " mention countless times. The question is why does Heritage (and Christies, Sotherbys) use a buyer's premium, Dr. H? Moving past the fact, if it's possible, that you, I and most agree the BP is in plain sight, why is the BP used? Surely there is a reason Heritage uses it. What is that reason as you see it?
the reason is simple Carson.. because that's really where the auction house makes the money. They cut all kinds of deals to get consignments and not all deals are equal.
for instance, my friend sold the Detective #27 that Heritage sold for $1.075mil
bid was $900k, premium was $175k. My friend, because of the quality of the comics got the full bid price and a % of the BP as well. heritage makes the % of BP my friend did not get, or approx 90k.. which is nothing to sneeze at
Of course, such a deal is reserved for the best items. I'm sure Kirk Hammett is getting a similar deal on the great posters he consigned to the auction tomorrow
I'm also sure that if you go to them with a stack of $500 posters.. you will not get the same deal
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The purpose of the buyers premium is to deceive the SELLER not the buyer! They can say, "We only charge 15%", when someone goes to consign, but that seller will likely not know they are getting an additional 20% from the buyer, making the effective charge around 35% (by comparison, eMoviePoster.com charges 20% on over $1,000 items).
this is also true and correct
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I should also say.. buyers complaining about the BP are way off base.
a smart bidder takes the BP into account when bidding, and so he decreases his bid (if he's paying attention) by the amount the BP raises it, and therefore to the bidder the BP is supposed to be a wash.
The BP is skin from the consignor, but the consignor is looking at: what will Heritage (or whomever auction house) get, and what will Bruce get (or any other auctioneer)
If, like my friend, you negotiate no seller fees, so Heritage (or whomever) only gets the BP, the end result between Heritage vs Bruce will come out to the same, presuming the final bid price is equal.
ps.. this is pretty much the case with valuable items.. but what about under $100 items??
I'll bet that they come out pretty equal as well when all is said and done
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I do agree with Bruce on this, as far as I know. The buyer's premium allows the house to shift the commission it earns to the buyer and the seller, rather than the seller bearing the weight of the entire commission.
The buyers premium is there to deceive consignors, as Bruce says, (that assumes all bidders just bid to their budget limit allowing for the buyers premium in the final price). This way the consignor gets paid selling price minus 15% consignment fee and minus buyers premium 19.5% ie the consignor is hit with a 35% fee.
The buyers premium is also there to trick buyers... sometimes bidders forget, like me in the heat of the moment (or don't clearly see it) to take that fee into account. In this case the buyer actually cops paying the premium, not the consignor. So lucky consignor (selling price is higher to cover the BP), and also lucky Heritage who get a slightly higher buyers premium based on the higher final selling price.
I'll be bidding on a couple of items at 5am Sydney time, trying to get Heritage Live thingy working... My internet connection locks up about every 30 mins so I figure it will be fate whether I end up with the items or not... Not sure I can really afford 'em!!! Let alone shipping... I have done phone bidding on a item estimated at $4000. Guess what... I won it at exactly $4000! I think next time on the phone I wont get carried away and say yes,yes,yes,... and will just wait calmly till asked if I want to increment the bid... That was my first time phone bidding and learnt my lesson...
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You can do proxy bidding via Heritage live, too
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Thanks Dr Hack, although I am hesitant to let Heritage know in any form my max bid until the exact time to bid. If I miss out because of an internet glitch then I usually go, phew, I still have all that money left in my hands and I'm glad I didn't blow it on something that will likely live out it's life in a tube!!!
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Agreed. I'm putting in my first realistic bid on a Heritage sig auction tomorrow and, after everything I've read about in-house bidding, I'll definitely be using their live bid system to put in one bid at a time...
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Be careful. Hitting that big red button can become addicting
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By the way, I just wanted to take a minute to thank Bruce! I'll be the first to admit that Bruce brings up the topic of shill bidding at sites like Heritage a lot. And at times, it can come off as petty jabs at the competition (all the posts, the comics, etc...).
However, without his warnings I'm sure I would have merrily put in my max bid and possibly won it... at my max bid no doubt. It is really too bad that companies resort to tactics like high BPs and in-house bidding. For that I applaud Bruce and eMovieposter -- and Rich and movieposterbid for that matter. I really truly hope they get more business because of it!
Taking this way back to the first post in this thread... I don't think it is a surprise to anyone to say that Heritage's site looks more polished. I'm sure the reason they attract the big consignments (and the bid bidders to go with them) is due to some combination of their polish, their in-person auctions, and their history as the-place-to-go-for-big-ticket-posters. However, history is constantly being re-written and I hope Bruce and Rich can eventually evolve their sites to take more and more business away from Heritage. Hopefully someday we can all just relax, bid, and be happy when the best bidder wins!
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Be careful. Hitting that big red button can become addicting
No worries, I'll be hooked up to a car battery with another big red button under my wife's hand... There will be no bidding past our already agreed upon high bid. ;D
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By the way, I just wanted to take a minute to thank Bruce! I'll be the first to admit that Bruce brings up the topic of shill bidding at sites like Heritage a lot. And at times, it can come off as petty jabs at the competition (all the posts, the comics, etc...).
However, without his warnings I'm sure I would have merrily put in my max bid and possibly won it... at my max bid no doubt. It is really too bad that companies resort to tactics like high BPs and in-house bidding. For that I applaud Bruce and eMovieposter -- and Rich and movieposterbid for that matter. I really truly hope they get more business because of it!
To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath. The books have sold for 30-50% less than what he paid for them, with few exceptions. Could be market correction, could be the economy - who knows. But I bet he wished HA shilled up the bids on his books. That being said, Bruce and Rich both got some of my money tonight, and I was glad to spend it with them.
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No worries, I'll be hooked up to a car battery with another big red button under my wife's hand... There will be no bidding past our already agreed upon high bid. ;D
As I'm not married, I rely on self-flagellation to keep myself in line :o
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I Dont bid on HA or BH, for whatever reason, doesn't matter. But complaining about buyers premiums, well, its al there, happens on auctions all over the world, dont like it? protest with your wallet and don't use it. Some people wont buy off dealers direct as they think its too expensive, they prefer getting bargains off ebay, thats their choice, some people dont use ebay, as they are not certain of what they will get, some people don't trust auction houses, some don't trust certain dealers. Its a choice. This isnt air or water, we dont need it. Buy it if you want.
On a slight tangent, but sort of related, many will know I sell Gold (and Rare Coins and Banknotes) for a living, people come in DAILY and ask for the price of gold, as in what we sell for, theres always a % over the spot/market price they see on TV, and they complain.
It makes me grey, how often I have to explain, WE ARE NOT A CHARITY, WE NEED TO MAKE MONEY (I put it nicely). Sometimes people walk out. They expect to be able to buy and sell for the same price. Regardless of wages, rent, power, taxes, etc etc etc we need to pay, PLUS its a business, need to make a profit.
So I guess in my rambling I am saying, HA (again I dont bid or sell through - no desire) are there to make a buck, if they charge both buyer and seller, and both know (or are to lazy to read the fine print) thats fine, if they bid on their own auctions, while I dont like the idea, if its legal (I dont know) and is disclosed, ditto.
I am sure Ive said it before, I dont like MacDonalds, thats why I dont eat there.
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"To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath"
Remember that when the "house" in an auction is solely the auctioneer (as in your friend's case), they only get a percentage of the final sale (around 30% to 35%). So if they were able to cause the prices to go higher through nefarious means, they would only profit by a small part of that added amount.
But when they own the items they are offering, they make 100% of the extra money! So they have a huge vested interest in manipulating the prices of items they own themselves higher, but a much smaller interest in doing so with consignments. THIS IS WHY IT IS CRUCIAL THAT THE AUCTIONS REVEAL WHAT ITEMS THEY IN FACT OWN (and in New York State it is the LAW that they must do so).
Unfortunately Texas does not have this law (they also allow consignors to bid on their own items and to allow "reserves" to be over the high estimate).
The above explains why some bids get "mysteriously maxed" while others do not. In one case the house has a huge incentive to do so, and in the other, they don't have nearly the incentive (plus they can buy the item through their house bidder, re-consign the item to their next auction as their own consignment, and THEN mysteriously max the bids, when they now profit far more!).
Bruce
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"To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath"
Remember that when the "house" in an auction is solely the auctioneer (as in your friend's case), they only get a percentage of the final sale (around 30% to 35%). So if they were able to cause the prices to go higher through nefarious means, they would only profit by a small part of that added amount.
I would think that any auction house would want to get as much as possible for its consigners. If they don't, it may cause future consignments to go to some other venue. I've never known an auction house to turn down money, no matter how little it is. When you're selling a collection valued near 1M, every nickel adds up
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Ostensibly HA is an auction house. In reality, HA is a retailer overseeing which items go for what amount in keeping consignors pleased, prospective consignors interested and business at Heritage moving right along. HA reserves the right to influence outcomes in the fine print of their user agreement; a fact buried in fine print for a reason.
As Ari's said many times and correct each time: don't like, don't buy. I closed my account with Heritage end of 2007 for that reason. Today will be my first bid with them in two years via a friend attending; I'm willing to play by their fine-print rules today to win a rarity I've been after for 10 years. They have excellent material up.
Examples of maxed bids and comic books going cheap are great but, in a buttshell all that matters is those bidding Heritage understand, by rights of the fine print, Heritage reserves the right to bid on and influence the outcome of your auctions. I refer to it as fine-print permitted shill bidding as that's precisely what it is. Others have more tolerant names for it.
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Hope you win what you're after, Carson. Many lots have been ending below their estimates, so hopefully that bodes well for you
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Dr Hackenbush
Either you are misunderstanding what I wrote, or you are INTENTIONALLY misunderstanding what I wrote!
Of course all auction houses want to get the most for their consignors, because they get more moneywhen the items sell for more.
The question at hand was whether an auction would do something unethical or dishonest to cause items to sell for more (like maxing the supposed secret bids by raising the reserve to that amount, or by having a "house bidder" enter a bid just under that amount).
I pointed out that, when the auction house owns the item they make around three times more money than when it is a consignment, so they have FAR more incentive to do something unethical or dishonest.
And of course, when the dollar price is high, the amount they will profit by their unethical or dishonest action goes way up, so they have FAR more incentive then too.
Bruce
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You're right, I misunderstood what you wrote. I went back and reread it and agree with most of what you said
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Thanks Doctor!
Bruce
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Ive just recently had my first experiences with both Emovie and Heritage. Its only one experience each but it did leave what Im afraid will be a lasting memory.
Emovie graded more accurately, delivered at greater speed and did it without me having to pay the premium. Not all bad for Heritage as they did package very well.
I will be more hesitant to participate in Heritage auctions than Emovie auctions in the future. Im not so sure if its fair based on such a small sample but I am human and I now have a bit od a bias.
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Zorba
now you just have to visit www.movieposterbid.com and register as a bidder
we have weekly 99 cents auctions and sell lots of great stuff too.
Just ask some o fthe members here!!
Rich
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its true
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Zorba
now you just have to visit www.movieposterbid.com and register as a bidder
we have weekly 99 cents auctions and sell lots of great stuff too.
Just ask some o fthe members here!!
Rich
... not to mention some scarce old quads ...
http://www.movieposterbid.com/search.asp?nsearch=quadbod (http://www.movieposterbid.com/search.asp?nsearch=quadbod)
Best wishes,
Terry - www.quadbod.co.uk
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I vouch for movieposterbid and Rich...even though he is anti-Moonraker. :)
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Zorba
now you just have to visit www.movieposterbid.com and register as a bidder
I am registered :)