Author Topic: Star Wars bootleg inserts  (Read 6208 times)

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Star Wars bootleg inserts
« on: July 08, 2012, 03:16:30 PM »
Added authentication on Star Wars bootleg inserts on MPC:

http://moviepostercollectors.com/MPC_Authentication_Star_Wars_4_insert.html






Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 10:00:26 AM »
Reposting here:

****

Just had a long conversation with Steve Pearson, movie poster dealer since the 1970s and owner of DejaVuGallery.com. He used to own stores in the LA area.

He told me back in 1977 Lucasfilm directly sent him 300 rolled/folded Star Wars one sheets, as well as 10 Star Wars insert posters for promotional purposes.  He has sold or given away all but a handful of the one sheets but still has seven of the inserts.

Anyway, the inserts he received have "LucasFilm 1977" on them, like this:



These "Lucasfilm" inserts generally have been considered video one sheets (or bootlegs) but it appears at least some are original Lucasfilm promotional inserts.

So to the best of my information, there are two legit versions, original 20th Century Fox (left), original LucasFilm (middle), and bootleg (right):


« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 10:00:53 AM by Dread_Pirate_Mel »

Offline Zorba

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »
Cool.

Not that I am interested in one but can you do one for the Excalibur insert.  8)

Dcollins85

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 08:49:37 PM »
Wow, very informative. I understand that there is something to do with a hair on Lukes belt also ? Pulled from an online auction - "There are some key signs to identify the reproductions as follows: a hair on Luke's belt, no indention of the copyright in the lower left corner and the GAU logo isn't 'crisp'." 


Could you possibly do a comparasion of bootleg and original for The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi?

Offline Undead

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 03:20:17 AM »
Reposting here:

****

Just had a long conversation with Steve Pearson, movie poster dealer since the 1970s and owner of DejaVuGallery.com. He used to own stores in the LA area.

He told me back in 1977 Lucasfilm directly sent him 300 rolled/folded Star Wars one sheets, as well as 10 Star Wars insert posters for promotional purposes.  He has sold or given away all but a handful of the one sheets but still has seven of the inserts.

Anyway, the inserts he received have "LucasFilm 1977" on them, like this:

Mel,

How absolutely sure is he on his memory here? Could he possibly be mistaken on the Lucas inserts and got them at a later date even from Lucasfilm themselves?

The reason I ask is because Lucas did not have rights at that point when these were supposedly printed. I cannot say that there is no chance that this version was released in 1977 but I am highly doubtful of it and believe that it was a later 1980+ release especially with the footing that Lucas was on with Fox at the time with regards to the rights issues. I do not think that he would have, back then, removed the 20th Century Fox copyright information and inserted his own and risk opening a dangerous rift considering his long thought out plans. This would also make this insert the only Star Wars related poster produced prior to 1980 that bares the Lucasfilm Ltd. info as such. No other theatrical poster and as far as I can remember even non theatrical poster shows the Lucasfilm Ltd. tag prior to 1980. This includes foreign posters.

Another reason I still believe this to be a later printing is because the two inserts, Fox and Lucasfilm are two completely different prints. Back in the 90's I was one of the knuckleheads who went nuts researching the Star Wars posters, bootlegs, variations, etc. of which some of the identification features and background that is widely used now came from me and a few other completely insane individuals. Although I never consider research closed as you just never know and memories do fade over the years but according to the research I had done on these all of the initial print runs all used one plate design in 1977 for the insert, one sheet style A's are another story. These two inserts would indicate that there was actually a second set of plate designs in use in 1977. The NSS version and the Lucas version which uses a different PG box which is about an inch larger which is a more minor issue but the actual style A artwork that was used on the Lucas version is actually shifted up and to the left by about 1/4 inch. This is in addition to the overall scaling difference between the two where the NSS insert artwork (ignore borders and measure border box/art only) is a quarter inch taller. This would have represented a substantial amount of work to change compared to simply changing text for the copyright and the PG ratings box.

One last piece on it which if anyone has ever seen different please let me know as It would make a difference in how I date some of these inserts; the change over for posters printed under the GAU did not get the logo changeover from the right hand side oval logo location, where the oval GAU logo is to the right of Litho in USA to the left hand side oval location until part way into the 1980 release print runs. This is on inserts only, one sheets had changed the GUA Litho in USA layout in 1978.

Again I never say 100% on anything but to me the evidence like back when we originally dated these still tells me that this poster was printed in 1980+ and I do not think that date should be revised to be three years earlier without more information or supporting information and leave it as an official 1977 release version, the 77/21 NSS version, and a later promotional/video release which is the Lucasfilm Ltd. version without NSS info.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:34:57 AM by Undead »
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Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 07:15:26 AM »
OK, thanks for all the detailed info.  I'll ask for a larger image of his insert to ensure that it is the same as the stock image I used. He also said he received a few half sheets and that he was relatively sure he did not receive any more Star Wars material after the movie came out.  I think he said that when the movie came out he gave away 200 of the rolled one sheets for promotional purposes from his store - I think he said it was "Fantasy Castle" in San Fernando - which was one block from the local theater showing Star Wars.  (I've seen similar claims from comic store owners.  LucasFilm definitely sent free promotional posters to stores.)

« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 07:40:54 AM by Dread_Pirate_Mel »

Bruce

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 07:42:12 AM »
Remember that eye witnesses to crimes are often mistaken days or even minutes after a crime happens! Human memory is notoriously faulty, so PLEASE don't start becoming so enamored by decades old memories, especially when it comes with no documentation, and when other evidence contradicts those memories. Plus there HAVE been many cases where people embellish their memories over the years. I know really famous poker players who told of famous matches where hundreds of thousands changed hands and over the years the amounts grow to the millions, because they get a better reaction from their audience. Is it faulty memory or intentional? Who knows, but I do know these kinds of stories need to be always taken with a large grain of salt.

Offline Ari

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 07:47:02 AM »
I am reminded of another dealer who recieved hundreds of bootleg Star Wars posters way back (from US comic store contact) , sold them as original with a story of their providence, but admitted to other dealers that "what they don't know won't hurt them". Not saying this bloke is like that, I don't know who it is.
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Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 10:50:15 AM »
One last piece on it which if anyone has ever seen different please let me know as It would make a difference in how I date some of these inserts; the change over for posters printed under the GAU did not get the logo changeover from the right hand side oval logo location, where the oval GAU logo is to the right of Litho in USA to the left hand side oval location until part way into the 1980 release print runs. This is on inserts only, one sheets had changed the GUA Litho in USA layout in 1978.

If it's true that GAU did not print inserts in this manner until 1980 - and I checked several inserts that back you up - that's solid evidence the usual LucasFilm inserts must be post-1980.

However, it may well be that the stock image of the LucasFilm insert that I used does not match what he is selling.  I think he said that LucasFilm had these printed non-union.  The image on his site is extremely tiny but lacks the Lucasfilm under the left side box art and also seems to lack the small text directly under the 20thCF logo on the right.  It appears to be cut off at the bottom with just a smidgeon of writing showing at the bottom:



The full story is that I called him up about a Clan of Cave Bear poster he was selling but ended up talking to him for an hour-and-a-half about the poster business in general.  He certainly appears to be extremely credible with a good memory. After being a dealer for 45 years, he still has over 100,000 lobby cards and posters, many of which came from closed NSS warehouses.  He's a collector himself and over the years has collected and sold high value posters like This Gun For Hire. He's an old-school poster dealer and doesn't follow forums and doesn't know the likes of Tom Loce.

The Star Wars insert was a small part of our conversation.  We were talking about his prior sales on Ebay - he doesn't sell on Ebay now - and he mentioned that he had been trying to contact the authors of the Star Wars Poster Book to advise them that he had received 10 Lucasfilm inserts in 1977 along with 300 one sheets.  He said someone had mailed him on Ebay to tell him the inserts were video posters but he is certain he received all the promotional materials back in 1977.  

He says he only has seven (out of ten) to sell (for $325 each at 50% discount), so he doesn't have an endless supply of bootlegs and they are a tiny portion of his stock, so he has no significant motive to dissemble.

He's considering retirement or reopening a store.  He's considered consignment.  Bruce knows Pearson and has offered to send a truck to LA to obtain and sell his entire stock on consignment. He sent some lobby cards to Bruce.



« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 11:26:49 AM by Dread_Pirate_Mel »

Bruce

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 11:54:25 AM »
He WAS a major "player" in the hobby decades ago. I tried to make a deal with him on his remaining stuff, but could not, and have dropped it.

The photo of "his" insert will tell the story.

Offline Undead

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 11:12:01 PM »
Memories are some times scary things I know I have forgotten half of what I knew it seems and need to look up my own notes to double check my sources some times. I am very curious to see where this goes as well. Always love learning something new.

As to Tom I will have to dig but I think I still have some emails from him from back in the 90's where I went head to head with him as well as a few that were forwarded to me from other collectors before I dropped out of the hobby for a while. If I do I will PM you some of the more amusing responses. They were not always the same cookie cutter ones he and Roc give out now. I am pretty sure at least one of them admitted that they may be bootlegs as well but without the email in hand do not quote me on it.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 12:02:47 AM »
I worked at a video store in the early 80's..and I had kept the insert we got..which was LUCASFILM...got it in 1982....couldn't bring myself to spend the $120 for the movie but took it home the odd day it was NOT rented....just sayin'.....
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Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 08:20:00 AM »
I have revised and updated the Star Wars insert authentication to include the Lucasfilm video insert information:

http://moviepostercollectors.com/MPC_Authentication_Star_Wars_4_insert.html

I'll follow up with Pearson to see if he has a different version of the Lucasfilm insert.  For now, I definitely agree that it has to be a post-1980 printing.

Dan, I've offered to publish all your information on the bootleg inserts (not just Star Wars), giving you full credit, on MPC but you never responded.

Offline Dan

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 10:09:31 AM »
I don't have it all written out anymore..
I put my pants on the same way as you...one leg at a time!

Offline Undead

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2013, 11:07:03 PM »
Mel,

I see that you updated the SW insert page on your site with the information I posted here on the GAU logo. Does this mean that you saw a new image from him or found an image of the one he is talking about closing the case?
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Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 12:46:09 AM »
Somebody sent me a pic/link to an international Star Wars insert:

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/NewsArticle.aspx?ArticleId=570



« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 12:46:21 AM by Dread_Pirate_Mel »

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2014, 11:35:48 AM »
So to the best of my information, there are two legit versions, original 20th Century Fox (left), original LucasFilm (middle), and bootleg (right):




Funny, I missed an an obvious difference. The top of the bootleg is drastically cropped compared to the originals. There is plenty of sky above the helmet visible on the originals.

Bradburied and Rokmodataol are selling several of these and the top cropping can be spotted easily even from the previews:

« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 11:39:56 AM by Dread_Pirate_Mel »

Offline CSM

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2014, 12:09:59 PM »
Good eye Mel - I had not noticed that.

There is even a horizontal cropping difference between the 20th Century Fox vs. Lucasfilm as well (not to mention a HUGE disparity with the bootleg - that X-wing just below the Death Star is completely missing!) ...
Chris

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2014, 12:25:57 PM »
Good eye Mel - I had not noticed that.

There is even a horizontal cropping difference between the 20th Century Fox vs. Lucasfilm as well (not to mention a HUGE disparity with the bootleg - that X-wing just below the Death Star is completely missing!) ...

I had pointed out the missing fighter before but somebody else (on NS4? forgot who) pointed out the super-cropping at the top.

Offline jayn_j

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2014, 04:32:12 PM »
I would have thought that the cropping on the death star itself is the easiest to spot.  The NS4 has space between the edge and the window/antenna.  The Lucas one nearly kisses the edge and the bootleg chops off the left side of the circle.

Easier than counting fighters.
-Jay-

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2014, 04:51:15 PM »
Kinda amazing what you don't initially see, isn't it?


guest4955

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 11:46:19 AM »
Existing authentications:

http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/swinsertbootleg.jpg

http://moviepostercollectors.guide/MPC_Authentication_Star_Wars_4_insert.html

*****



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Distinguishing the NSS orig....





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Distinguishing the video...




guest4955

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Re: Star Wars bootleg inserts
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 12:06:55 PM »
Oh Lordy, there are probably a boatload of these on eBay but randomly ran into this one: