ROSA'S CASE STUDY: BLEACH OR DE-ACIDIFICATION?

[Mirosae]

What would you do?

I took a poster to Alain Bourgain, restorer here in London.  When we discussed the restoration work for my poster, he said he will bleach the paper to remove all the marks at the back of the poster. The marks are in light blue (see pic 1 and pic 2). I disagreed. He should remove the tape, but NOT the marks as those are part of the history of the poster.

Alain insisted that these should be removed because they could be seen from them front once it had been restored. The poster has a bright blue colour so I thought this would be very unlikely and also it would not be major concern for me.

Alain in the end ''agreed''and  will just de-acidify the paper, no bleaching. He made the valid point that it might be difficult for me to sell it in the future if the marks can be seen through the main body of the poster in the end.  I am not buying to sell, so that's not a problem or a concern.

I am rather buying to preserve, and that's why I want the poster as close as possible to its original condition, if that means with marks then so be it.

So my Q to you is, what would you do? Would you agree to bleach the paper? Have you kept marks such as these shown below?

Many thanks for you help with this. Any views would be highly appreciated!

PIC 1- STAMP 1


PIC 2- STAMP 2


PIC 3- FRONT BRIGHT BLUE COLOUR

[guest4251]

I am opposite. You would have to argue hard to make me remove NSS info from the back. I always believed it is a part of the poster history.

We could discuss if it bleeds on Marilyn's face or something intrusive like that.

Cheers,
dario.

[Mirosae]

Dario

Thank you so much for responding. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks that NSS marks need to be kept intact.

 I WILL CERTAINLY HAVE YOU IN MY LIST for future restoration work.

many thanks


r

[110x75]

What Dario said. He's the man. 

[brude]

Looking forward to seeing Paulette conserved. 
Please post the final results.

[50s]

I get them removed. The ink can make an awful mess to the front as the paste absorbs into the paper and ink spreads like tide marks through to front and larger than the stamp itself. What the restorer does (for me) is sand (with fine sand paper) the ink stamp out of the paper removing maybe half the thickness of the paper. That way there is no ink remaining to run.

Backing a poster is not keeping it original any more as it is not reversible (you'll have to always keep it backed somehow). It is saturated with glues, possibly sprayed with an irreversible finisher, possibly torn during restoration. If the ink runs then you have not preserved the front.

I wanted to keep the NSS stamp originally when I started backing, but after seeing the damage it can do, I get it sanded off first.

 

[Charlie]

I get them removed. The ink can make an awful mess to the front as the paste absorbs into the paper and ink spreads like tide marks through to front and larger than the stamp itself. What the restorer does (for me) is sand (with fine sand paper) the ink stamp out of the paper removing maybe half the thickness of the paper. That way there is no ink remaining to run.

Backing a poster is not keeping it original any more as it is not reversible (you'll have to always keep it backed somehow). It is saturated with glues, possibly sprayed with an irreversible finisher, possibly torn during restoration. If the ink runs then you have not preserved the front.

I wanted to keep the NSS stamp originally when I started backing, but after seeing the damage it can do, I get it sanded off first.

 

Maybe it is my lack of experience, but I have never had this back stamp bleed through that hadn't already bled through.  I lighten it with some 600 grit sandpaper but do not completely remove it.  Steve maybe it has something to do with your guy not properly bathing the poster?  I could only see ink spreading if it wasn't properly washed first... Odd.  If the poster is washed the wheat paste shouldn't make any difference.  Now I will say this, when the poster is wet and drying, the stamps, etc. often show through but then go opaque after drying...   I just did one that had sharpie all over the back.  You couldn't see it before the backing but when wet it was killing me that it may stay that way - sure enough after it dried; gone!

I think, and Dario please correct me, that unless the stamp is already bleeding through, there should be no need to completely remove it - maybe just lighten it before you bathe it. 

[50s]

Steve maybe it has something to do with your guy not properly bathing the poster?  I could only see ink spreading if it wasn't properly washed first... Odd. 

Could be right there, thanks.

[Charlie]

PIC 3- FRONT BRIGHT BLUE COLOUR

This isn't from the back stamp...  The position of the back stamp is much higher than the cross fold.  What in the world is that?  Maybe from the tape?

[Charlie]

Could be right there, thanks.

Just saying - Don't mistake it as a jab...  I am sure your guy is doing everything just fine.  

[50s]

This isn't from the back stamp...  The position of the back stamp is much higher than the cross fold.  What in the world is that?  Maybe from the tape?

That looks like someone drew on the front to cover damage spots

[guest4251]

I never had a NSS stamp bleed as much that it would create a smear or odd coloration on the front.
One's in a Blue Moon,  I've notice some light ink float away from the stamp, but not enough to create a problem. It will stay behind in the bath when pulling the poster out.

Having said that. Linen backing is not exact science and unexpected problems can happen when you least expect it.

50's, is this something that you seen/experienced first hand?

Regarding in the Blues stain on the front of Rosa's poster. That looks like touch up by someone?

Good stuff,
dario.

[Ari]

Yeah, leave, leave, leave, unless your name is Steve.

[50s]

50's, is this something that you seen/experienced first hand?

I could be confused. On thinking, I've seen pen on the reverse do horrible bleed thru, not sure now of the NSS stamp. The backer sands off pen and ink stamps... any ink... I think my backer just goes about it a different way. There is some kind of washing done though.

[Mirosae]

This isn't from the back stamp...  The position of the back stamp is much higher than the cross fold.  What in the world is that?  Maybe from the tape?

Charlie , spot on. It is not. I took that pic just to show the front paper a random spot  ...idiot me do not have a pic of the front from the back stamp.



I wonder now if Alain wants to remove it because it may bleed. Gosh. I still want it with the marks NO with any flipping flopping  bleeding.

I will have to wait and see. Will post results.


Thank you all for looking into this !

[Harry Caul]

Didn't Mel have a Jane Russell poster with faint NSS stamp bleed through on her face?  French Line maybe?


EDIT: Found it: http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php?topic=2112.0

Picture of poster with strange spots on Jane's face:


Picture with light source from behind and he realized it was bleed through from the stamp:


One more enhanced in photoshop:

[Mirosae]

Didn't Mel have a Jane Russell poster with faint NSS stamp bleed through on her face?  French Line maybe?


EDIT: Found it: http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php?topic=2112.0

Picture of poster with strange spots on Jane's face:


Picture with light source from behind and he realized it was bleed through from the stamp:


One more enhanced in photoshop:

Matt

Thank you. I do appreciate you taking the time to look at this! I am now worried agh... Alain didn't say that there will be a lot of bleedthrogh, and from memory, the stamps wern't on her face but at the lower end to the left... but I can see that it can be a bit too distractive ... ay, ay, ay...

I imagine that a restorer should know what he or she is doing. I called him to tell him to let me know asap if there was any bleedthrough. I am still keen to keep the marks, and I imagine that as Dario suggested, a good restorer knows how to deal with these ones. I know that others here have also been kind enough to give their views.

I am just ( now ...sugar......

[Harry Caul]

I wouldn't worry about it on your poster Rosa... the stamp is on a dark area so even if it bled through you would never see it. 

I was more responding in general as to whether bleed through can even take place.  If it is a particularly heavy stamp and it corresponds with a light colored area on the front -- apparently the answer is yes.

[Mirosae]

ok, thanks a lot. For one second I was imagining poor Paulette restored a la Camden Town style.. with tattoos all over the place....

[Mirosae]

Alain has let me down ...posters not ready yet ...more than a month I want them back  sooner and he insisted on removing the stamps ...what the flop??? 

[Mirosae]

Sounds like he 's got too much going on right now ...don't want to wait 6 or 7 weeks for my posters ...agh.......

[CSM]

Rosa - in my opinion MUCH better to wait for a well-restored poster than get a piece of crap job back quickly...

Restoration is an art and good artists should take their time

[paul waines]

What Chris said..