Amateur Linenbacking 101 by Pulpfixin

[Charlie]

Come on guys I need a "don't worry about it Charlie" or something...  I know Dario seems to be the final word on here but he's making it sound way worse than it is... I bet he's a republican (for Ted)...  "oil" - "wax"  there is no difference.  Oil is not soluble...  What really sucks is those cost like $200. I might do some more testing/research before tossing them out.  Thoughts?  Maybe a smudge test and stain test?

Dario, do you actually know if the Neocolors will stain or just assuming they will?  I could see how traditional 'oil' pastels might stain...but these aren't those.  And doesn't even regular water color leave pigments behind upon removal?

[50s]

I agree with Dario, I have a 3 drawer set of the Durer's they are great watercolor pencils with a high quality pigments for great color

[guest4251]

Hi Charlie,

I read this,

<<<< Also, criticism would be really great at this point.  Do we suck (my wife is helping)? Are we doing so so?  I have never sent a poster that had folds to be backed and touched up so I have no frame of reference.  Pictures don't always tell the whole story so those of you that have sent stuff out please chime in with you stories and/or expectations... I would really appreciate it... >>>>

Not criticizing you, but felt a few valuable pointers would be good. Also, I don't have the final words here, I'd hate to thinks so.
You are certainly free to do what ever/how ever is fit for your style of work.

I personally and I don't know anyone else that use or would use creamy oil sticks for fold work. just to soft and it doesn't  give you that pin point accuracy. I would assume leaving that on there, it would/could stain the paper after a few years? I don't know for sure and I wouldn't risk it. That's why I said in previous post <<<<but they most likely will leave oil stains in the tracks after removing >>>> I am Sorry if that came across worse than it really is.

End of the day, all good!

All the best,
dario.

PS: thanks 50's for confirming the top notch quality of Faber-Castell Albrecht Durer Watercolor Pencils. More money than most brands, but well worth it!

PSS: I am not Republican, I am Canadian! , but looking in from the outside. I would vote Obama!

[Charlie]

Hi Charlie,

I read this,

<<<< Also, criticism would be really great at this point.  Do we suck (my wife is helping)? Are we doing so so?  I have never sent a poster that had folds to be backed and touched up so I have no frame of reference.  Pictures don't always tell the whole story so those of you that have sent stuff out please chime in with you stories and/or expectations... I would really appreciate it... >>>>

Not criticizing you, but felt a few valuable pointers would be good. Also, I don't have the final words here, I'd hate to thinks so.
You are certainly free to do what ever/how ever is fit for your style of work.

I personally and I don't know anyone else that use or would use creamy oil sticks for fold work. just to soft and it doesn't  give you that pin point accuracy. I would assume leaving that on there, it would/could stain the paper after a few years? I don't know for sure and I wouldn't risk it. That's why I said in previous post <<<<but they most likely will leave oil stains in the tracks after removing >>>> I am Sorry if that came across worse than it really is.

End of the day, all good!

All the best,
dario.

PS: thanks 50's for confirming the top notch quality of Faber-Castell Albrecht Durer Watercolor Pencils. More money than most brands, but well worth it!

PSS: I am not Republican, I am Canadian! , but looking in from the outside. I would vote Obama!

Hey Dario, I very much appreciate the comments. And I hope I didn't come off brash.  I am going to take your advice and move away from these.  But where the tension might exist in my comments are from being confused about the "oil" comments since the NEO2s are made of water soluble wax, and not oil...  They are very dry. They aren't quite creamy, no more than a soft water color pencils.  The material can be moved with a rubbing of the finger and buffed with a cotton ball, but someone would have to really work at it to smudge it.  In a lack of confidence, I went back to the NES and rubbed one of the touched-up areas and it did not smudge at all.

I am also not sure why a stain, if it does make a stain as you suggest, would quite matter in this case.  Especially if it is under the touched-up area.  And worse case if you are removing the touch-up, you will probably be reversing the backing and will wash the poster again anyways.  In fact, in additional research, the only water color pencils that dissolve completely in water (and don't leave granulated pigments behind) are the Faber-Castells, so kudos to you and Steve.

Actually, the real concern should be "wax bloom" and not really any of the other stuff as I have been googling my ass off to see if they have "oil" in them.  Apparently if a fixative is not added, the wax can bloom a white powder.  Similar to the white powder that covers some of the tips. So the wax pastel are definitely out with that bit of knowledge...  Luckily, I've only used them on the two quads and there is a remedy.  I will have to apply a recommended workable fixative which is matte finish.  So I will get to spray away my reflection issues.  Bruce predicted it!

Dario, if you are up for one more tip:  Do you recommend or use any type of fixitive?

Thanks,

Charlie

[Charlie]

Check out this artwork done with the NeoIIs.  They can be sharpened; I had to use my carpentry pencil sharpener to get a point for the finer work on the two quads...  Thought I would share since these were awesome...

http://rdcreative.co.uk/uploads/general/Water_soluble_pastels_with_mixed_media9.pdf

[guest4251]

I do remember talking about this a long time ago.

Caran D’Ache NeoArt Water soluble Pastels being wax and Caran D’Ache Neocolor II being Oil. So I did a search just now and found this.

Caran D’Ache Neocolor II Artists Crayons
The product name describes them well– they look like crayons, feel like crayons, but are softer, extremely pigmented, and versatile in application. The fact that they’re oil-based makes them harder to writer over than the wax-based NeoArt pastels, so keep that in mind if you like to art journal. They’re available in a super-impressive 128-color range, including metallics. Unlike some of the other products reviewed here, the Neocolor II’s don’t become brighter with water; they’re equally pigmented whether wet or dry. And just to emphasize, the Neocolor II’s are extremely pigmented.


No I don't use fixative or any spray of any kind at all. The only thing I would spray on paper is Wei'to

Best,
dario.

[Charlie]

And the plot thickens.  I have a set of NeoIIs that have Water Soluble Wax on the box versus when googling Caran D’Ache Neocolor II Artist Crayons I found a
a box that doesn't have wax or oil on it...





I've been googling this hard because I really did my homework (or thought I did) before buying these (well minus the wax bloom issue; oops) and even pulled info off your site and Dan's (the backing future guy) site regarding mentioning water soluble sticks (?? Why not water color pencils?). The company brochure says wax pastel.  I've also found some artist's site that basically say they have no clue if it is wax or oil...  I'll have to e-mail them.

http://www.carandache.ch/filedownload.lbl?url=/CDA08/PDF/FA/Brochure/Depl_tech_NEOCOLOR.pdf

But this may all be a mute point because one would have to apply fixative, which I always thought was a no-no.  Yeah it technically can be erased off but that would do some damage on its own... We picked up a bunch of water color pencils at lunch for the blues on the ESB. Luckily I had only applied a thin line of the wax pastel which can be removed since it is still on the frame without issue...    

Thanks again Dario!

If you still want to chip in (and you can always PM me):  CaOH2 or CaCO3?  and CaClO2 or Chlormine-T?  I am leaning towards CaOH2 and CaClO2... and Acetic Acid baths...

[Bruce]

Mute points are always better left unsaid.

[Charlie]

Mute points are always better left unsaid.

You got me...  Moot is the word I should have left unsaid...

[Charlie]

So I stopped by and got some Krylon Workable Matte Finish and sprayed the two quads... I can definetly see why some backers would want to use this stuff it made all the shiny contrast almost disappear.  The posters look even better...  Else the quads and wax/oil pastel are locked down...

[Ari]

my Mutter always told me not to leave things unsaid.

[erik1925]

So I stopped by and got some Krylon Workable Matte Finish and sprayed the two quads... I can definetly see why some backers would want to use this stuff it made all the shiny contrast almost disappear.  The posters look even better...  Else the quads and wax/oil pastel are locked down...

Charlie,

Is this Krylon spray removable? To spray a matte finish spray on a retouched poster is something I have never read about on any restorer's or linen backer's website, as a finishing option. Have you found some that use this product? Just on it's face, to spray an entire poster with this kind of product that will also "seal" everything in place seems like a no no, from a conservation POV, especially.

[Charlie]

Charlie,

Is this Krylon spray removable? To spray a matte finish spray on a retouched poster is something I have never read about on any restorer's or linen backer's website, as a finishing option. Have you found some that use this product? Just on it's face, to spray an entire poster with this kind of product that will also "seal" everything in place seems like a no no, from a conservation POV, especially.

Well I think the conservation POV depends on what is desired as a concept of the restoration.  The fixative is acid free and archival safe; so it will not do damage to the poster conservation-wise.  Artist use the fixatives on all types of work to prevent smudging etc.  

-So when one says POV; is the restorer's job to just preserve the paper.  If so why even do touch-ups?  

-Is the job of a restorer to preserve the paper and then through archival methods make it looks its best? Then I can see an archival fixative as an option.  But can it truly be removed?  A bit scary here.  It erased pretty easy but who wants to erase it off of 1200 square inches of poster.  However it did make the two quads look amazingly uniform.  And it is archival and acid free.  So to me the question that should be asked would be; is there a way to wash the fixative off if so desired later. That may change things.

My personal thoughts are starting to lean more towards almost doing nothing; like a European style backing... Putting make up on a poster doesn't make it really any better.  You will wake up the next day with a beat up poster on the wall in a pretty dress.  But if someone asked me to do it or I was forced to do it because of my "wax" oversight; is the poster any less conserved; No IMO.  Is it less original; Yes.  It just has more make-up on.  Now if you used a non-archival product like hair spray that would be a different story.  

So for professionals who don't like to use it - is that really for him to decide or for his client to decide.  I see it as the same as selecting options post backing and that is a personal choice...

The real issue with all of this as I am learning (and Steve has been telling us all) is how to know what exactly has been done to a poster that has been backed.  How do you know what options have been selected so you can make a choice in a resale situation. This was one of my aims with the report on the One Million Year B.C. report.  More to come I keep getting an error...

[Charlie]

report ... and I think Ed from Lamp had generated a checklist as well.  I was actually thinking of investigation invisible ink that would illuminate under blacklight and literally stamping on the masa paper near the border an ID number that would reference to a blog.  Kind of like the DNA stuff from that authenticators place...  Then anyone whom ever wanted that poster or went to resale that poster could reference a report detailing the process it underwent. 

Here are the Krylon Specs.

http://www.krylon.com/products/paper_finishes_workable_fixatif/

[Charlie]

That was a weird error situation...

[Charlie]

Dan from Backing to the Future states he uses Krylon Workable Fixatives and or clear matted to finish the poster. As stated on his website...

http://www.backingtothefuture.com/services/

Products Used

I use a 12 ounce Indian acid free canvas. This provides a durable solid foundation that can be easily rolled for shipping and storage.

The paper used is a Japanese Masa paper that is acid free and makes for an excellent buffer between the movie poster and the canvas.

The glue is made from a wheat starch adhesive that is prepared by hand.

The pigments used are Stabilo Softcolour water soluable colour sticks. I also use Cotman Water Colours and other brands of paint when airbrushing is required.

I use Workable Fixative and/or Clear Matte to finish the poster and prevent smudging.

[jayn_j]

FWIW, we used thie Krylon fixative heavily in my parent's photgraphy business.  It worked well in protecting touch up work we did on photos for spot removal, and retouching.  It also came in several finishes to match the photo paper.

Now, it may interfere with some person's idea of "originality", but I would think no more than linenbacking, fold elimination, paper replacement or anything else we do to restore older paper.

[Charlie]

FWIW, we used thie Krylon fixative heavily in my parent's photgraphy business.  It worked well in protecting touch up work we did on photos for spot removal, and retouching.  It also came in several finishes to match the photo paper.

Now, it may interfere with some person's idea of "originality", but I would think no more than linenbacking, fold elimination, paper replacement or anything else we do to restore older paper.

Excellent point...  If it doesn't hurt the paper then the originality is the only remaining question and personal preference...

[Charlie]

Check this out:

Security marker pens or UV Markers with fluorescent ink that glows when illuminated with a UV light may be used to invisibly mark valuable household items in case of burglary. They may be especially formulated for writing on non-porous surfaces such as glass, plastics, etc. The inks are applied and then identified using a black light or other UV light source. The owner of a recovered, stolen item which has been marked in this way can be traced simply by using an ultraviolet lamp. Security marker pens can be obtained commercially and are widely used as a crime countermeasure.

Going to have to stop at Office Depot on the way home...

[jayn_j]

Excellent point...  If it doesn't hurt the paper then the originality is the only remaining question and personal preference...

FWIW, I have photgraphs that are now 60 years old that have had fixitive applied.  No signs of discoloration, cracking or any other deterioration.

[brude]

Recently, I pulled out a box of older pencil illustrations that I had spritzed with common hairspray to prevent smudging.
I was surprised how white they had remained over the years. The only discoloration was aging on the edges and the corners where they had been taped to my drawing board.
They actually looked brighter and crisper than pics that I had not sprayed.

[bigmike]

Hold on, What is a fixative and why is it bad?

Also, Charlie, You sprayed the quads and said they looked better. Do you have pics with the spray to show comparison?

[Charlie]

Also, Charlie, You sprayed the quads and said they looked better. Do you have pics with the spray to show comparison?

Nope, I didn't manage to take pics.  And I just shipped them off today...  They didn't look any better front on, but from other angles the folds were less visible and the medium had virtually disappeared glare-wise...   

[Charlie]

I added a status page to my site (http://pulpfixin.com/blog/status-page/).  Do you guys know of any other backers out there that have something like this.  I've been trying to brainstorm come up with ways to take things to a different level...  I also did this so I can stick my personal backing place holders in there since this why I started this madness.

[Harry Caul]

The site (and restorations) look great Charlie! 

To answer your question, I know Dario provides before/during/after photos if you request them. And poster mountain has an online database. You can browse by title and see some of the restoration pics. However, they are just tiny web photos. To get the full report with big pics the client is given a login password.