Movie Poster Authentication Book

[CineMasterpieces]

Isn't it nice to have a free website to use for authentication?

If you look at the info. on my site regarding the Jaws insert that got me in trouble so many years ago, Bruce's does appear to have the same slightly cropped artwork as the one everyone screamed at me was a bootleg.

What does this mean? Does it mean that it is such a good fake that it fooled Bruce too? or, is it real? I did tell everyone that the quality of it was superior in every way to every bootleg I had ever seen. No one believed me. My thoughts are that if it really is a bootleg that it was printed on the same printing presses (only years later) so the quality is the same as originals. That is what we were told, that they were done in the 80's "after hours" by unscrupulous employees at one of the nss printing facilities.

Here is the picture of the one that I had that everyone said was a bootleg.



Here is a picture of a real one:

[Zorba]

I remember David L selling a minty white Jaws insert he swore up and down was original too at one time..only to find out later it was indeed ....a minty white...so even the best (lol) can be fooled.

 

[CineMasterpieces]

it's been a whole day and Bruce still has the Jaws insert listed.

I'm sure he is just busy and he'll take it down, but man if I waited that long I'm sure I'd be vilified!


oh, and I think Heritage currently has a fake recalled Spiderman listed.

http://movieposters.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=161225&lotNo=52454


the best.  

[Bruce]

I've sent Dan an email to try to get a definitive answer. If I end it, I can't re-start it, but I can end it up until the auction ends.

Of course everyone knows I would never knowingly sell a fake and in the few cases where I have unknowingly done so, I have contacted the buyers, even years later, and given them a refund, even though it usually ends up being out of my pocket, because I paid the consignor long before.

There are two complicating problems here:

1) We have never ever sold an international style Jaws insert, so we can't do our usual comparisons (this is very unusual on such a modern poster)
2) This is definitely NOT a Rochester minty white. If it is fake iy was done by someone else

If we have any doubts nearing the auction end we will end it. We would rather be safe than sorry.

[holiday]

This is exactly how it went with Dave, but that was a MUCH nastier discussion.  Bruce, if the same cropping is there as was with Dave's at the time, it's fake.  No doubt.

[Harry Caul]

Yeah, I think Dan already confirmed that about the cropped artwork on page 5 of this thread...

I JUST sent you an email...

In my professional opinion the paper stock can fool even the best of people..even someone who handles a million posters a year like yourself..the ONLY way to discover a minty white is by art crop only. seriously....

The good old minty white printing was indeed a unrated insert....and it had a slightly diff art crop that the known original unrated insert...shorter obviously...something about the bubbles could give it away...

I made a composite of the cropped artwork from the images on Dave's site:

[Dan]

Thanks Harry...that's exactly what I needed to show...glad to know my memory has not all purged....

[Bruce]

Phillip created this for me at work, and the cropping difference IS very clear. Now just point me to ONE example anywhere of the original. Surely someone has one. Because without seeing one, who knows for sure there is such a printed poster?

If things stay as they are, I will end the auction tomorrow, and return the poster to the owner, but I sure would like to see an image of the original poster in the flesh to know for certain.

[CineMasterpieces]

its funny.....this is almost the same way I reacted 5+ years ago. I was a little cockier yes, but I said to the nsfge board "show me some evidence first and then I'll remove it". From the moment I was notified of it, it took a whopping 48 hours for me to remove it. Seriously, that's it, 48 hours. To them that was a LIFETIME. 

Everyone was HORRIFIED....absolutely HORRIFIED at my reaction. They couldn't believe that I wouldn't just take their word for it, that it was fake. They wanted it removed for sale IMMEDIATELY, and since I didn't do it IMMEDIATELY, I was vilified.

I would remove it Bruce, they can be ruthless! You really don't need the aggravation.

[Ari]

I really have noticed that everyone seems a lot calmer these days, sure there's fl;air ups as we have seen on Mopo, but compared to a couple of years ago, people generally aren't getting as angry.

And yes, Dave you sure copped it huh?

[Dan]

See the picture above provided by Diamond Dave for the pic of the original international insert...

I have one of those in my storage....

You have a minty white on your hands Bruce....and you have doubts...so did Dave and boy was he.....mmmm..arrogant...go figure...

I have seen people rip-tear-burn-stain and bake the poster to make it look like it was years old....the art crop gives it away...

I also bet there are MANY collectors who have minty white like Shining & Scarface inserts as they were VERY hard to authenticate....

It took me years to find known originals of those as well as A Clockwork Orange...

Bet many of you also have Scarface 27x41 advances you think are original but they are not...another one that was done extremely well...

To understand what to look for you have to know how they were most likely created....this took me years to learn and countless hours to research and I'm sorry but I don't have the time to go down this road again...

You can not go by feel of paper alone....me...even me...sat down at a table one night and tried to do it blindfolded...and couldn't do it...I also tried just looking at the backs of the posters and had a few wrong...

in the end it's your call....you have made a bit of a crusade against them and those who sell them to some degree...something you may want to do is look into it a little more...

knowledge.....is king!

don't just take my word on it...

peace out

d

[holiday]

Exactly.  In the end, you made the right decision, Dave, as has Bruce (so it seems).  Given this particular poster, it's a tough one to swallow to be sure.  I think with your example, you just hated to face it.  Interestingly, this is the most I've ever seen Bruce resist, and I again think it's because it's hard to swallow this insert as a fake.  It does suck, to be sure, but it also makes the real ones more to be desired.  I'm grateful that there's a clear way to distinguish the fake from the real.

its funny.....this is almost the same way I reacted 5+ years ago. I was a little cockier yes, but I said to the nsfge board "show me some evidence first and then I'll remove it". From the moment I was notified of it, it took a whopping 48 hours for me to remove it. Seriously, that's it, 48 hours. To them that was a LIFETIME. 

Everyone was HORRIFIED....absolutely HORRIFIED at my reaction. They couldn't believe that I wouldn't just take their word for it, that it was fake. They wanted it removed for sale IMMEDIATELY, and since I didn't do it IMMEDIATELY, I was vilified.

I would remove it Bruce, they can be ruthless! You really don't need the aggravation.

[Harry Caul]

Bet many of you also have Scarface 27x41 advances you think are original but they are not...another one that was done extremely well...

Whoa... that is the first I've heard of a Scarface advance bootleg!  Do you mean the photo advance or the regular style with the xmas tagline? 

[Bruce]

I am just telling you all that in my opinion there is NO WAY this is a "minty white". But I am happy to accept it is a different fake. I doubt the Rochester boys ever had their hands on an original of this poster first off, and secondly, if they had, there would be no reason to lose the half inch of art. We DO know the Jaws one-sheets were printed in more than one location, so maybe these were too.

But now that Dan says he has one of these with the full art, then I know FOR SURE it is different, and I refuse to sell it on a GUESS that it could be real but from a different printing, so I will end it in the morning and send it back to the consignor. Bottom line, if I am in doubt, I won't sell it.

I have to look out for the consignor as well. It didn't hurt any to leave it on until I had as many facts as possible, because it will never get sold.

And Dan, we will have to agree to disagree on the minty whites. All the ones I have been sent (hundreds) have a very distinctive different paper stock that is equally glossy on the back as they are on the front. Maybe at some point they found better non-glossy back paper stock to use, but if so, I haven't seen one.

And I am sure you could "rough up" one of the minty whites to make them so I could no longer tell the difference, but this one has not been messed with, except for paper loss on the back where it was once taped to a wall.

[Dan]

"And Dan, we will have to agree to disagree on the minty whites. All the ones I have been sent (hundreds) have a very distinctive different paper stock that is equally glossy on the back as they are on the front. Maybe at some point they found better non-glossy back paper stock to use, but if so, I haven't seen one. "

Agree to disagree...no worries...

At one time I bought multiples of each title from diff sellers to make sure of my findings....hundreds of dollars down the toilet...
In my opinion I never really felt them to be "all that glossy" on the back Bruce...if anyone else has a minty white please chime in..

Ps-the art crop is a result of how they were made...it was unavoidable from my findings...I'm not going to get into this but I will say each title on the minty white list will be ever-so-slightly different from a known original printed in the year they represent. Some will be easy to spot-others are near impossible but there is always a tell-tale sign....again it was unavoidable due to the process they were made. I traced them as far back as the very early 90's.

It would have made a good book this drama huh?

off to count sheep

d

[holiday]

I am just telling you all that in my opinion there is NO WAY this is a "minty white". But I am happy to accept it is a different fake.

Now this could be true.  I have no idea.  Imagine the fight now, that it's not the proper fake!  That would be priceless.

[Ari]

who is reproing the minties? and why, dear lord...

[Bruce]

No, there is NO minty white of this international Jaws insert, just this one.

No one would ever reproduce the minty whites, due to the low quality. They would start with a known original, as the Rochester boys did.

[CineMasterpieces]

This particular fake Jaws insert is imo a recreation/restrike produced after hours in mass quantities by unscrupulous nss print shop employees sometime in the mid to late 80's. They came from the same place where the originals were printed. There were other titles as well like Star wars, Blade Runner, etc. I was told a long time ago that these existed. The paper is very close in quality to the original (some think it is EXACTLY the same) and the quality of the printing is just as good as the original. Imagine if it were possible for a us mint employee (who knew what they were doing) was able to sneak into the mint at night and print money. It would be a near perfect counterfeit. That is what I believe these inserts are comparable to. You really have to see one in person side by side with an original and you will just shake your head in disbelief.

[Ari]

This particular fake Jaws insert is imo a recreation/restrike produced after hours in mass quantities by unscrupulous nss print shop employees sometime in the mid to late 80's. They came from the same place where the originals were printed. There were other titles as well like Star wars, Blade Runner, etc. I was told a long time ago that these existed. The paper is very close in quality to the original (some think it is EXACTLY the same) and the quality of the printing is just as good as the original. Imagine if it were possible for a us mint employee (who knew what they were doing) was able to sneak into the mint at night and print money. It would be a near perfect counterfeit. That is what I believe these inserts are comparable to. You really have to see one in person side by side with an original and you will just shake your head in disbelief.

a bloke in Australia did that in the Royal Australian Mint, except he used old dies and old blanks to make VERY rare Gold Sovereigns. I met him a few times.

[jayn_j]

This particular fake Jaws insert is imo a recreation/restrike produced after hours in mass quantities by unscrupulous nss print shop employees sometime in the mid to late 80's. They came from the same place where the originals were printed. There were other titles as well like Star wars, Blade Runner, etc. I was told a long time ago that these existed. The paper is very close in quality to the original (some think it is EXACTLY the same) and the quality of the printing is just as good as the original. Imagine if it were possible for a us mint employee (who knew what they were doing) was able to sneak into the mint at night and print money. It would be a near perfect counterfeit. That is what I believe these inserts are comparable to. You really have to see one in person side by side with an original and you will just shake your head in disbelief.

OK, now I am confused again.  If the fake is run on the same presses, with the same plates, using the same paper and printed by the same people, how can it be fake?  How is it different than stealing some from an extended print run?  And for that matter, how could you tell the difference?

[Bruce]

Not the same plates. The art is cropped. Why is a mystery. But the paper is the same or incredibly similar to regular ones, unlike the minty whites.

[CineMasterpieces]

and, they were made several years after the originals were printed.

[Harry Caul]

Whoa... that is the first I've heard of a Scarface advance bootleg!  Do you mean the photo advance or the regular style with the xmas tagline? 

Bumpity bump bump. 

Don't want this one to get lost... I always read that the xmas tagline versions were not bootleged.  It doesn't show up often, as you would expect a bootleg would.  However, when it does it is usually rolled.  Luckily I only spent $50 on mine.

Any additional info on this would be great Dan (or others).

[CineMasterpieces]

agreed. I would love to see any evidence that the advance was bootlegged. Other than obvious moviegoods copies. I have never seen or even heard of a bootleg for either version of the advance scarface 1sh. Like Harry said, they don't show up often as you would expect a bootleg would.