Author Topic: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?  (Read 63804 times)

Offline CSM

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Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« on: March 03, 2012, 12:23:42 PM »
I've decided I am going to need to acquire a rolled (original release) one sheet for Blade Runner.

Unfortunately, the fold lines are far too prominent on this poster due to it's paper stock and the darkness of the poster (hence the need for a rolled version).

I know there are several variants out there - NSS vs. Studio issue with different markings.

I have heard rumblings there are rolled, 27x41 reprints out there - does anyone have experience with these?  Is it true? Is there a handy guide comparing original vs. repro?

Thanks in advance!
Chris

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 01:15:03 PM »
From my own experience... there are two (EDIT: US) versions of this poster.

1. Studio Issue -- It only has the NSS number in the lower right.  I have full size (27"x41") bootleg that I got suckered into purchasing, but I don't have an original to do a proper comparison.  The reason I know it is a bootleg is because Todd at MPGrading tested the paper and there is no alkaline in it.  Movie poster paper stock didn't come without alkaline until the mid 80s so this poster was printed after this time.  The paper stock also appears to have come from Japan (based on the presence of different pulps).  This paper stock matches bootlegs for The Thing (also full length 41") and Pulp Fiction (regular) that Todd has also tested.  Presumably that means these bootlegs were all printed at the same time in the mid-90s or later.  

2. NSS Issue -- It has the NSS number in the lower right, but it also has the name in block print and an NSS paragraph just right of center at the bottom.  This is a deceiving poster as the fine print text in that NSS paragraph is fuzzy -- which would normally lead you to believe that this is a bootleg.  However, my full-sized (27"x41") rolled copy perfectly matches folded NSS versions and it was also authenticated by MPGrading.  There was a discussion of this version on MOPO a while back and the consensus was that it is indeed original despite the fuzzy paragraph.  I'm not sure if there are full size bootlegs of this version, but I would guess not.  This style rarely shows up rolled... if there were boots you would think it would be more common.  

Best of luck.  If I were doing it again I would hold out for the NSS version.  By the way, if anyone has a guaranteed original, folded studio issue -- I'd be happy to send over my rolled bootleg for a comparison.  Maybe we can then figure out the tell-tale signs on how to avoid them.  The text looks a bit fuzzy on mine, but so does my NSS so I don't think you can go by that exclusively.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 02:12:11 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 01:17:35 PM »
By the way, I also have a folded international version of this poster -- it has no NSS number, no block print text, no NSS paragraph, and of course no 'R' ratings box.  I got mine from Australia and it has a ratings snipe on it.  I assume it was printed separately so it can't be used to compare with the US studio version. 

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 01:43:03 PM »
I just ran some numbers from the eMovie DB for original release Blade Runner 1-sheets:

Total = 75
No Picture/Can't tell version = 18

Of the 57 remaining where we can tell:
Total NSS = 19
Total Studio = 21
Total Int'l = 17

Rolled NSS = 3
Rolled Studio = 12 -- Hmmmm...
Rolled Int'l = 2

« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 02:14:52 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 03:12:46 PM »
Studio posters, unlike NSS & int, are normally found rolled, so that, in and of itself, is not surprising.

Most of my thoughts on the subject can be found in the Unicorn thread, where I detail the reason why I sought out a 30x40 rather than even worrying about finding a real rolled one-sheet - http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,117.msg28628.html#msg28628

My other question is... According to Dan's story, this poster was reprinted from the source at the time of release, and for several years after, for use by cable companies, video releases and just about any time someone asked for some posters, so was Todd at MPG able to offer any other 'authentication' beyond it being printed before the mid-'80s?  If not, then one still wouldn't know when and for what purpose their poster was used and just how original it is...

I still would never own a rolled one-sheet on this title...

« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 03:13:21 PM by archie leach »

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »
Studio posters, unlike NSS & int, are normally found rolled, so that, in and of itself, is not surprising.

I partly agree.  Rolled studio posters for Star Wars, Escape from New York, Back to the Future, etc... are ALWAYS more common that rolled NSS posters for the same title.  However, the percentage of rolled vs. folded is ALWAYS heavily in favor of folded posters during this time period.  Even for relatively later titles like BTTF. 

My 'Hmmmm....' comes from the fact that a full 57% of the studio-issue posters Bruce has sold were rolled.  That percentage seems WAY high regardless of who printed it.


Offline CSM

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »
Thanks to you both for your insights and thoughts guys.

I somehow knew this was going to be way more complicated than I hoped it to be.

It seems, to be as safe as possible, and to ensure an original I am going to regretfully have to go the folded route...

Couple of questions however:

1) Matt - the Studio Issue bootleg you have - is it rolled?

2) For clarification which of these versions do you have and which one is the rolled one that was authenticated?

As per LAMP (pics are at this link to clarify the versions) http://www.learnaboutmovieposters.com/posters/db/poster.asp?pid=2171

Measures 27x41 and issued either rolled or folded. NOTICE: We have found 3 different variations of this poster. Because I can't show the entire bottom of the posters... I've broken them into important pieces.

Variation 1 - NSS Version
This version has NOTHING in the bottom left corner; Litho in U.S.A. (AND) the NSS tag in the center; BLADE RUNNER 820007 in the bottom right
  
Variation 2 - Studio Version
This variation has "PRINTED IN U.S.A." in the bottom left corner; NOTHING in the center; and "NSS 820007" in the bottom right.
  
Variation 3 - Odd NSS Version
In the bottom left corner has "PRINTED IN U.S.A."; in the center 'IN SMALLER PRINT' has "LITHO IN U.S.A." (AND) the NSS tag; In the bottom right has "BLADE RUNNER NSS 820007" in 'UNEVEN' print.
    



« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 04:05:15 PM by CSM »
Chris

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 04:16:34 PM »
1) Matt - the Studio Issue bootleg you have - is it rolled?

Rolled.


2) For clarification which of these versions do you have and which one is the rolled one that was authenticated?

As per LAMP (pics are at this link to clarify the versions) http://www.learnaboutmovieposters.com/posters/db/poster.asp?pid=2171

Measures 27x41 and issued either rolled or folded. NOTICE: We have found 3 different variations of this poster. Because I can't show the entire bottom of the posters... I've broken them into important pieces.

Variation 1 - NSS Version
This version has NOTHING in the bottom left corner; Litho in U.S.A. (AND) the NSS tag in the center; BLADE RUNNER 820007 in the bottom right
  
Variation 2 - Studio Version
This variation has "PRINTED IN U.S.A." in the bottom left corner; NOTHING in the center; and "NSS 820007" in the bottom right.
  
Variation 3 - Odd NSS Version
In the bottom left corner has "PRINTED IN U.S.A."; in the center 'IN SMALLER PRINT' has "LITHO IN U.S.A." (AND) the NSS tag; In the bottom right has "BLADE RUNNER NSS 820007" in 'UNEVEN' print.
    


Variation 2 - Labeled as bootleg by MPGrading
Variation 3 - Authenticated by MPGrading

I didn't realize there were 2 different NSS versions.  As expected, I didn't differentiate between them (and I'm not sure I'd be able to given the picture sizes) when going through the eMovie archives.

Offline CSM

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 04:21:20 PM »
So, just to be clear, the rolled version that you have that was authenticated is Version 3 where the "Blade Runner" text is uneven with the NSS # on the right, there is "blurry text" in the middle and "Printed in USA" on the left?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 04:22:17 PM by CSM »
Chris

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 04:29:08 PM »
So, just to be clear, the rolled version that you have that was authenticated is Version 3 where the "Blade Runner" text is uneven with the NSS # on the right, there is "blurry text" in the middle and "Printed in USA" on the left?

Yes.

And by the way, there was an early 80s video release poster for this film... I'm not sure if that casts significant enough doubt on the extra-printings-from-the-original-plates-for-video-use story.


Offline CSM

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 04:35:44 PM »
Thanks Matt.

1) Now do you have any knowledge on which of the folded versions/variations would be the hardest to come buy or is the most desirable (yes I know that's a subjective opinion)?

2) How much rarer is the International vs. the US (I don't really care which I acquire as they have the exact same art other than the credit/printing/NSS info etc)?

3) Are the International one sheets also 27x41?


I am putting you to work buddy because, as you can see, my forte certainly does not lie in post 1980 (daybill or otherwise) posters!

Chris

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2012, 04:56:58 PM »
After further research on eMovie:

Total = 75
No Picture/Can't tell version = 18

Of the 57 remaining where we can tell:
Total US Variant 1 = 9
Total US Variant 2 = 21
Total US Variant 3 = 10
Total Int'l = 17

Rolled US Variant 1 = 0
Rolled US Variant 2 = 12
Rolled US Variant 3 = 3
Rolled Int'l = 2

So Bruce has never sold a rolled Variant 1, meaning the few rolled NSS posters he did sell were all Variant 3s. 

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2012, 05:02:55 PM »
1) Now do you have any knowledge on which of the folded versions/variations would be the hardest to come buy or is the most desirable (yes I know that's a subjective opinion)?

Seems subjective at best.  If you think Bruce's auctions are a large enough sample size, then Variant 1 appears to be the most rare, although only by a tiny fraction.  Variant 1 also seems to have the least doubt surrounding it...


2) How much rarer is the International vs. the US (I don't really care which I acquire as they have the exact same art other than the credit/printing/NSS info etc)?

In addition to the fine print text, NSS, etc... the int'l doesn't have the big 'R' rating in the lower right as well.  Again, based only on Bruce's numbers it looks like approx. 1/3 int'l and 2/3 US posters.


3) Are the International one sheets also 27x41?

Bruce has listed all his int'l 1-sheets as being 27x41 so I would guess yes.  I can measure mine, but it will probably take a few days/weeks to dig it out.

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2012, 05:12:22 PM »
This is what Dave posted on MOPO last year:

Quote
Hi Alan.
 
I have heard a rumor that a full sized one sheet repro/restrike for BLADE  
RUNNER was made "after hours" at one of the nss printing facilities sometime
in  the 80's, right around the same time they made the Star Wars one  sheet
bootlegs. They say it is virtually indistinguishable from an  original. As
far as I can tell, this is just a rumor. It could be true......but  I have
seen NO EVIDENCE whatsoever even suggesting that it is. I think if it  WERE
true......these rolled bootlegs would be everywhere (they aren't) just like  
the Star Wars style A,B, and C bootlegs.
 
I have seen at least 50 different ORIGINAL one sheets for BLADE RUNNER  
over the past 10 years........folded, rolled, mangled....etc. I've noticed at  
least 3 different, possibly 4 different printings. To answer your question,  
the splotchy nss paraghraph is common on some of them, even folded ones.
They  weren't printing currency, so the quality control wasn't perfect. Maybe
the  splotchy ones came at the beginning or end of the print run? We will
never  know.
 
If it is full size 27" x 41" and it looks, feels and smells (yes,  smells)
just like a folded one, and the paper it is printed on is the  same, then it
is probably authentic.
 
 
Best,
 
Dave


David Lieberman

Dave also has a past sale of Variant 3 listed on his site... provenance was from the same Continental Litho employee who provided all his 60s/70s rolled NSS posters.  http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg  That seems pretty definitive to me...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:16:26 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2012, 05:15:56 PM »
Yes.

And by the way, there was an early 80s video release poster for this film... I'm not sure if that casts significant enough doubt on the extra-printings-from-the-original-plates-for-video-use story.



No, it really doesn't... so, I take that to mean that Todd wasn't able to 'authenticate' it any further than early '80s?

However, the percentage of rolled vs. folded is ALWAYS heavily in favor of folded posters during this time period.  Even for relatively later titles like BTTF.  

This was the changeover period and it can be rather title dependant.  For the larger titles (Ghostbusters was another) the studios were already feeding the commercial market through people like Kirby, who sold at conventions and colleges.  There are tons of rolled studio BttF, at one point there was a near endless supply on eBay that Dave L. practically made his living reselling.  I would caution against misconstruing what you see for sale versus what exists.  

The Lost in Translation Scarlett & Murray poster were a good example.  The MPF folks became convinced that the Scarlett poster was a short-printed version, just because they were having difficulty finding one.  I knew that theaters received them in equal quantities and Dale confirmed that they were printed equally, but it didn't stop the rumour from spreading...


Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2012, 05:29:29 PM »
...so, I take that to mean that Todd wasn't able to 'authenticate' it any further than early '80s?

That is correct.  

However, it sounds like all we have to back up the (printed after-hours from the original plates) and (extra print runs from the original plates for the video market) are just rumors and conjecture. I at least proved that there was a separate video poster.  I don't see any proof of the other stories being true what so ever.  

I'm not sure if you believe Dave's rolled Barbarella style B and rolled Italian Job 1-sheets are genuine, but his rolled Variant 3 was from the same source.  I know MPGrading did fiber tests on some of Dave's older 60s/70s rolled posters from the same stash... 1 test was inconclusive and the others showed them as being from period appropriate paper stock.  Between that and multiple folded copies of Variant 3 being sold through the years by eMovie poster and others -- I know it isn't definitive, but the balance of evidence seems pretty convincing to me that Variant 3 is the real deal.

You yourself said I should be wary of the stories people tell... why should I believe the 2nd/3rd hand stories you are re-telling?  Do you have any comparisons with known originals?  Have you sent anything for testing with MPGrading?  
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:32:00 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2012, 05:30:33 PM »
This is what Dave posted on MOPO last year:

Dave also has a past sale of Variant 3 listed on his site... provenance was from the same Continental Litho employee who provided all his 60s/70s rolled NSS posters.  http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/pka5.jpg  That seems pretty definitive to me...

Definitive that it could have been printed at any time in the early '80s.  Dan was not talking about a bootleg run a la the Hairy Star Wars boots, he was talking about Warner publicity and anyone else who asked being able to get what the wanted on an as needed basis.  

Dave's logic ("I think if it WERE true......these rolled bootlegs would be everywhere (they aren't) just like the Star Wars style A,B, and C bootlegs.") in the letter is faulty.  If it were true and the posters were identical to those previously printed then you would never be able to tell the difference, so they could be everywhere and you'd never know.  Plus there is a huge difference in the shear number of posters when you are talking about the tens of thousands of Star Wars Hairy Boots and the few thousand likely distributed for Blade Runner.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:48:03 PM by archie leach »

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2012, 05:46:25 PM »
That is correct.  

However, it sounds like all we have to back up the (printed after-hours from the original plates) and (extra print runs from the original plates for the video market) are just rumors and conjecture. I at least proved that there was a separate video poster.  I don't see any proof of the other stories being true what so ever.  

I'm not sure if you believe Dave's rolled Barbarella style B and rolled Italian Job 1-sheets are genuine, but his rolled Variant 3 is from the same source.  I know MPGrading did fiber tests on some of Dave's older 60s/70s rolled posters from the same stash... 1 test was inconclusive and the others showed them as being from period appropriate paper stock.  Between that and multiple folded copies of Variant 3 being sold through the years by eMovie poster and others -- I know it isn't definitive, but the balance of evidence seems pretty convincing to me that Variant 3 is the real deal.

You yourself said I should be wary of the stories people tell... why should I believe the 2nd/3rd hand stories you are re-telling?  Do you have any comparisons with known originals?  Have you sent anything for testing with MPGrading?  

It's a fact, not conjecture that Warner Bros. used theatrical one-sheets for video releases during the '80s.

You are asking to prove something that is likely unproveable.  What would MPG be testing?  My point was just that the MPG grading service can only establish date ranges that are not in issue in this case.  Variant 3 may well be the real deal, but there may very well be plenty of Var 3 copies that came from Joe Cable guy.

BTW, a video poster with a price was usually used for a specific promotion - as an added poster to the original push, so it's existence, which wasn't unkown by any means, doesn't prove anything, except that at some point they discounted the price.

As for Dave's Find of early rolled posters, I have no doubt that they are authentic.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:55:22 PM by archie leach »

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2012, 05:47:26 PM »
Definitive that it could have been printed BY AN NSS EMPLOYEE at any time in the early '80s.

Fixed it.  If the studio did another print run for the video market, why would they have used an NSS printer and NSS plates?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:54:44 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2012, 05:54:24 PM »
It's a fact, not conjecture that Warner Bros. used theatrical one-sheets for video releases during the '80s.

It may be a fact that they sent out theatrical posters for use in the video market, but is it a proven fact that they did new print runs of theatrical posters specifically for the video market and that they weren't just clearing out old stock?  Where did Dan get this info?  Do you have a link to the details of his claims?  I'm not doubting them, but they are just stories to me.

Based on the number of sales of the variants by Bruce, there seem to be a whole lot more of the rolled studio posters.  Again, all we have is stories and a few inconclusive facts.  But based on the balance of evidence currently available... it sure seems like if there was an extra printing by the studio, they likely used the studio plates.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:55:56 PM by Harry Caul »

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2012, 05:54:59 PM »
Fixed it.  If the studio did another print run for the video market, why would they have used an NSS printer?
The plates were already made up and it wasn't just the studio asking for them.  Video was it's wild west stage at the time.

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 06:00:46 PM »
The plates were already made up and it wasn't just the studio asking for them.  Video was it's wild west stage at the time.


So if I'm Joe video store owner in the early 80s... I could call up the NSS and they would agree to print posters from the original plates owned by a studio I had no affiliation with?  Seems like more conjecture to me.  How would they know which printer to contact?  Seems much more likely the video stores would be contacting the studio for print material.

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
It may be a fact that they sent out theatrical posters for use in the video market, but is it a proven fact that they did new print runs of theatrical posters specifically for the video market and that they weren't just clearing out old stock?  Where did Dan get this info?  Do you have a link to the details of his claims?  I'm not doubting them, but they are just stories to me.

Based on the number of sales of the variants by Bruce, there seem to be a whole lot more of the rolled studio posters.  Again, all we have is stories and a few inconclusive facts.  But based on the balance of evidence currently available... it sure seems like if there was an extra printing by the studio, they likely used the studio plates.
Ask Dan.  He was hip-deep into his spiderman research at the time.  As I said in the Unicorn thread, he posted it on MPT or in the early NSFGE archives which are no longer around (at least, I wasn't able to find it) - NSFGE lost a good chunk of it's early days at one point.

There have always been way too many rolled studio versions of this poster available for sale.  I am sure that ebay sales would follow similar lines to Bruce's data.

Offline archie leach

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 06:09:45 PM »
So if I'm Joe video store owner in the early 80s... I could call up the NSS and they would agree to print posters from the original plates owned by a studio I had no affiliation with?  Seems like more conjecture to me.  How would they know which printer to contact?  Seems much more likely the video stores would be contacting the studio for print material.

More like Joe Cable operator and others operating in conjunction with Warner publicity on the official side and after hour runs for 'friends and family'...

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Re: Blade Runner 27x41 1982 US or International Rolled Reprints?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 07:49:50 PM »
Can help out with measurements / close-up shots of this one. I know its source.

Mark