Could we as a collective influence Market rate ?

[stewart boyle]

Wilst reading another thread in forum, i had an idea.
If a fellow member has spotted a desired item for sale, but doesn't want to pay overlly inflated prices for such.
Could we as a group lower the sellers expectations. ?

A rhetorical question of course .

Stew

[paul waines]

Yes.

[Silhouette]

A rhetorical question of course .

So you don't want anyone to response? 

However, I think the total number of members here is far less than the number of active collectors in toto so I doubt anything the "collective" did could really alter things; perhaps it might just make it easier for others to get it by reducing some of the competition.

[110x75]

Could we as a group lower the sellers expectations. ?

[Silhouette]

hehehe...and then there is always option 2

[stewart boyle]

So you don't want anyone to response? 

However, I think the total number of members here is far less than the number of active collectors in toto so I doubt anything the "collective" did could really alter things; perhaps it might just make it easier for others to get it by reducing some of the competition.

Is that not a good thing?
;-)

Stew

[fallenangel1]

I think it depends on how aggressive you are are attempting to change it .. You could falsify sales and show proof of it selling for a lot less .. Kind of like how I think people supposedly sell prints on ebay for 10x the going rate and immediately re-list another for a little less than the price of the one that just "sold".. making the new listing look like a "deal".. those sellers are trying to create a false ceiling .. While in this case youd be digging a new basement You could then also have other collectors email really low offers to the seller and have them reply with how crazy the seller is when he responds with his reasonable offer. then it will come down to how badly does the guy /gal want to sell said poster .. If hed rather hold on to it than let it go cheap then nothing youd do would make a difference. But if he gave in youd have another record of a low priced sell and you would have started effecting the actual value of said poster.

[stewart boyle]

I think it depends on how aggressive you are are attempting to change it .. You could falsify sales and show proof of it selling for a lot less .. Kind of like how I think people supposedly sell prints on ebay for 10x the going rate and immediately re-list another for a little less than the price of the one that just "sold".. making the new listing look like a "deal".. those sellers are trying to create a false ceiling .. While in this case youd be digging a new basement You could then also have other collectors email really low offers to the seller and have them reply with how crazy the seller is when he responds with his reasonable offer. then it will come down to how badly does the guy /gal want to sell said poster .. If hed rather hold on to it than let it go cheap then nothing youd do would make a difference. But if he gave in youd have another record of a low priced sell and you would have started effecting the actual value of said poster.

+1

Stew

[MoviePosterBid.com]

collecting is a want, not a need.
if you want it and you have the money, the only obstacle is a personal issue (money)

now I'm a little different than most people in one specific way: if I can't get it for the price I want, and I won't pay the price asked or the auction price - I'm perfectly happy without the item.

In other words, it's nice to win, but it's skin off my back if I lose.

therefore, I care not if I am or am not influencing anything. you look at my collection pics and obviously, I'm no cheapskate, but there are still items I likely will never have because I won't pay the price and I just don't care one way or the other. Also, it would be impossible for me to influence the price on those items anyway as they are well collected and there is always someone else.

I say if you aren't willing to pay a price, just move on and spend your money on something else.. No need to get emotional over it

[Silhouette]

As I said I feel few collectors aren't going to be able to influence the price as much as places such as Heritage and eMovie already do, their auction history IS the gauge by which most collectors set their price thus theirein lies the 'pricing influence' effect

But that said a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group - if that group bought the 'right' product and perhaps bought in multiples they could overtime influence the price by slowly turning over 'in demand' items and setting the minimum bid price.

[jayn_j]

But that said a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group - if that group bought the 'right' product and perhaps bought in multiples they could overtime influence the price by slowly turning over 'in demand' items and setting the minimum bid price.

Hmmm, you might want to look up the Hunt brothers and ask how well that worked for them back in the '70s with silver. 

I see a couple of problems.  First, lots and lots of paper is simply too common to corner, and most cases if it is rare, there is another one just as good over in the next lot.  Unless you are attempting to corner Universal Horror, there are simply too many choices.  If you are trying for Universal horror, most of it is already in collector hands.

Second, if you did manage, you would see the counterfitters come out in droves.  They would drive the prices back down and we would be sitting around all day talking about hairy belts.

The dealers already control the auction market to some extent.  They need a margin and know what the retail market is willing to pay.  I often will use the point where the known dealers drop out from bidding as my indicator that the price is about right.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

But that said a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group - if that group bought the 'right' product and perhaps bought in multiples they could overtime influence the price by slowly turning over 'in demand' items and setting the minimum bid price.

total fantasy in collectibles

[Silhouette]

total fantasy in collectibles

I really don't see how you can say that without justifying your statement - and you are wrong.

Investment groups exist internationally where there is money to be made from the appreciation on value of a product/item. I am aware of such groups exist in things such as Art (paintings, sculpture) as well as stamp, Coin collecting. I do not know if any exists for vintage posters but given the prices some items can appreciate by I see no reason why they don't or could not.

In addition there are a number of investment houses that will invest in the above (coins, art etc) for and on behalf of its members.

[Silhouette]

Hmmm, you might want to look up the Hunt brothers and ask how well that worked for them back in the '70s with silver. 

I see a couple of problems.  First, lots and lots of paper is simply too common to corner, and most cases if it is rare, there is another one just as good over in the next lot.  Unless you are attempting to corner Universal Horror, there are simply too many choices.  If you are trying for Universal horror, most of it is already in collector hands.

Second, if you did manage, you would see the counterfitters come out in droves.  They would drive the prices back down and we would be sitting around all day talking about hairy belts.

The dealers already control the auction market to some extent.  They need a margin and know what the retail market is willing to pay.  I often will use the point where the known dealers drop out from bidding as my indicator that the price is about right.

I have no doubt you are right with much of what you say - but I am not saying its workable just that it is possible given the value and the increasing value of vintage posters.

At the end of the day if  2 or 3 friends decide to pool their money to buy one or two items (or more) as a long term investment (say for their retirement) then that by its very nature is an investment group. Then when/should they decide to sell them they can decide what the want the price to be etc

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I really don't see how you can say that without justifying your statement - and you are wrong.

no david YOU are wrong.. I've been selling collectibles for 45 years (since 1966) and I have a fantastic handle on the business. Better than 98% of the collecting/dealing population
simply said, you couldn't buy enough copies of any piece in this business that is worthwhile over a 20-year period to influence anything because there is too much of most material and the really good stuff that would be wisest to attempt such a thing there isn't enough of. the rest of the material doesn't even fit the category of usefullness

[Silhouette]

no david YOU are wrong.. I've been selling collectibles for 45 years (since 1966) and I have a fantastic handle on the business. Better than 98% of the collecting/dealing population
simply said, you couldn't buy enough copies of any piece in this business that is worthwhile over a 20-year period to influence anything because there is too much of most material and the really good stuff that would be wisest to attempt such a thing there isn't enough of. the rest of the material doesn't even fit the category of usefullness

Hang on - you said that my statement about an a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group was total fantasy, did you not? I wasn't suggesting that a group could corner the market in material just by buying up the market (which as you say is not feasible) more that by purchasing multiple items they could set pricing which would help benchmark future sales their stock.

I was in the corporate scene for 25 years and am successfully semi retired, but what is true in business is true in collecting, it's just a commodity and like you said if you want it and can afford it and don't get emotional about it then you can't go wrong.

[All that said I do get emotional about many of my pieces and despite the fact they may or may not be worth something now or one day - the emotion is the first and foremost reason I collect

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Hang on - you said that my statement about an a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group was total fantasy, did you not?

WRONG!

I said this is a fantasy

But that said a 'collective' is a great option for an investment group - if that group bought the 'right' product and perhaps bought in multiples they could overtime influence the price by slowly turning over 'in demand' items and setting the minimum bid price.

add my last post & you have all the information needed..

[jayn_j]

David, this isn't all that new.  You can run up the price on certain items short term, but not long enough to be able to cash out.

What you are suggesting is nothing new.  Ask the older members about Mahtab Moleri who tried to run up Audrey Hepburn in the '90s, or the more recent Jaws1975 who recently tried the same thing.  These people run out of money and interest, and the pieces keep coming.  The end result is that you are sitting on a lot of paper that you bought at the current market, but which you cannot sell without causing the same market to crash. This is because you and you alone set the market price.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

David, this isn't all that new.  You can run up the price on certain items short term, but not long enough to be able to cash out.

What you are suggesting is nothing new.  Ask the older members about Mahtab Moleri who tried to run up Audrey Hepburn in the '90s, or the more recent Jaws1975 who recently tried the same thing.  These people run out of money and interest, and the pieces keep coming.  The end result is that you are sitting on a lot of paper that you bought at the current market, but which you cannot sell without causing the same market to crash. This is because you and you alone set the market price.

perfectly said.
the only way to influence the market is to buy the only 2 items known to exist of a poster that is in high demand, and then publicly destroy one of them. that would change the equation

[crowzilla]

Investment groups exist internationally where there is money to be made from the appreciation on value of a product/item. I am aware of such groups exist in things such as Art (paintings, sculpture) as well as stamp, Coin collecting. I do not know if any exists for vintage posters but given the prices some items can appreciate by I see no reason why they don't or could not.

The art items you mention are one-of-a-kinds, while the other collectibles you mention have long-established 3rd party grading companies that are accepted by the community as a whole which makes it easier for investors.
When a poster in C-8 condition can sell less for one in C-5 condition a week later, it makes it very tough for the pure investor who uses condition as a way to differentiate the wheat from the chaff when dealing with more common items (like 50s sci-fi), and while one could probably make money purchasing Universal horror one-sheets, they enter the market at such an infrequent rate (now that the fakes are being weeded out) that it would make investment planning useless.

I actually like CGC grading of my lobby cards and have had a bunch of the US cards in my Godzilla collection graded.  They are a nice combination of rare enough to make finding mint sets challenging, yet plentiful enough that examples still surface for sale every year. As a result I am putting together CGC 9.8 sets on them.  On the other hand, I have purchased Japanese Godzilla lobby cards with chunks missing, or that are otherwise so tattered and torn I normally wouldn't even consider buying them as I know they are not likely to surface again anytime soon (they tend to be even harder to find than 30s Universal horror - even Bruce has never sold a single original Japanese lobby card from any of the first 5 or 6 Godzilla films).

Unless the hobby increases in size or unless 3rd party grading takes off more among collectors, there really is very little reason for investors to park money here.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I should add.. the term "Pipe Dream" is the age-old addage for this very situation.

it's clear the meaning is "you have to be on heavy drugs to think this is an option"

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Unless the hobby increases in size or unless 3rd party grading takes off more among collectors, there really is very little reason for investors to park money here.

a very erudite post capped with the true reason why such a thing is not likely to be viable in posters

it's been tried in comic books which is an infinitely larger hobby than movie posters and has never been successful

[Silhouette]

Stew - does all that has now been said succinctly answer your question? 

[stewart boyle]

Stew - does all that has now been said succinctly answer your question? 

Great opinions and much to learn in everyones input.
My question was not so much to do with cornering the market but more as in this.

I have an item that according to all the research i done,determined that its worth $5000.But ive had this sucker for a long time with no one biting.
So if a member here spots this dillema and wants to pay $500 for the item.Is there a way the forum could convince me that i am wrong with my $5000 valuation. ?

Stew

[MoviePosterBid.com]

are you drinking again???