Emovie vs. Heritage

[Dr Hackenbush]

That point has been made many, many times on these boards, Dr. H. "But the BP is right in front of your nose just factor it in to your bid". Even slightly experienced collectors know this very well and have for years. You and I recognize and factor in inflated shipping when buying on ebay just the same.

We have heard the "it's right in front of your nose " mention countless times. The question is why does Heritage (and Christies, Sotherbys) use a buyer's premium, Dr. H? Moving past the fact, if it's possible, that you, I and most agree the BP is in plain sight, why is the BP used? Surely there is a reason Heritage uses it. What is that reason as you see it?

Because they can, pure and simple.  Heritage used to charge 15% BP, then they raised it to 19.5% (I believe it's 15% on certain auctions).  People complained (rightly so), but until there's a precipitous drop in bidders and consignments, it'll stay the same.  It's like any industry, they'll try and wring every last nickel out of buyers that they can.  I don't bid on HA much because of the 19.5% VIG.  I've won one lot (two movie poster books) in over two years from them.  As long as people have all the information at their disposal, they can choose to do as they please with their money

[MoviePosterBid.com]

That point has been made many, many times on these boards, Dr. H. "But the BP is right in front of your nose just factor it in to your bid". Even slightly experienced collectors know this very well and have for years. You and I recognize and factor in inflated shipping when buying on ebay just the same.

We have heard the "it's right in front of your nose " mention countless times. The question is why does Heritage (and Christies, Sotherbys) use a buyer's premium, Dr. H? Moving past the fact, if it's possible, that you, I and most agree the BP is in plain sight, why is the BP used? Surely there is a reason Heritage uses it. What is that reason as you see it?

the reason is simple Carson.. because that's really where the auction house makes the money. They cut all kinds of deals to get consignments and not all deals are equal.

for instance, my friend sold the Detective #27 that Heritage sold for $1.075mil
bid was $900k, premium was $175k. My friend, because of the quality of the comics got the full bid price and a % of the BP as well. heritage makes the % of BP my friend did not get, or approx 90k.. which is nothing to sneeze at

Of course, such a deal is reserved for the best items. I'm sure Kirk Hammett is getting a similar deal on the great posters he consigned to the auction tomorrow

I'm also sure that if you go to them with a stack of $500 posters.. you will not get the same deal

[MoviePosterBid.com]

The purpose of the buyers premium is to deceive the SELLER not the buyer! They can say,  "We only charge 15%", when someone goes to consign, but that seller will likely not know they are getting an additional 20% from the buyer, making the effective charge around 35% (by comparison, eMoviePoster.com charges 20% on over $1,000 items).

this is also true and correct

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I should also say.. buyers complaining about the BP are way off base.

a smart bidder takes the BP into account when bidding, and so he decreases his bid (if he's paying attention) by the amount the BP raises it, and therefore to the bidder the BP is supposed to be a wash.

The BP is skin from the consignor, but the consignor is looking at: what will Heritage (or whomever auction house) get, and what will Bruce get (or any other auctioneer)

If, like my friend, you negotiate no seller fees, so Heritage (or whomever) only gets the BP, the end result between Heritage vs Bruce will come out to the same, presuming the final bid price is equal.

ps.. this is pretty much the case with valuable items.. but what about under $100 items??
I'll bet that they come out pretty equal as well when all is said and done

[50s]

I do agree with Bruce on this, as far as I know. The buyer's premium allows the house to shift the commission it earns to the buyer and the seller, rather than the seller bearing the weight of the entire commission. 

The buyers premium is there to deceive consignors, as Bruce says, (that assumes all bidders just bid to their budget limit allowing for the buyers premium in the final price). This way the consignor gets paid selling price minus 15% consignment fee and minus buyers premium 19.5% ie the consignor is hit with a 35% fee.

The buyers premium is also there to trick buyers... sometimes bidders forget, like me in the heat of the moment (or don't clearly see it) to take that fee into account. In this case the buyer actually cops paying the premium, not the consignor. So lucky consignor (selling price is higher to cover the BP), and also lucky Heritage who get a slightly higher buyers premium based on the higher final selling price.

I'll be bidding on a couple of items at 5am Sydney time, trying to get Heritage Live thingy working... My internet connection locks up about every 30 mins so I figure it will be fate whether I end up with the items or not... Not sure I can really afford 'em!!! Let alone shipping... I have done phone bidding on a item estimated at $4000. Guess what... I won it at exactly $4000! I think next time on the phone I wont get carried away and say yes,yes,yes,... and will just wait calmly till asked if I want to increment the bid... That was my first time phone bidding and learnt my lesson...

[Dr Hackenbush]

You can do proxy bidding via Heritage live, too

[50s]

Thanks Dr Hack, although I am hesitant to let Heritage know in any form my max bid until the exact time to bid. If I miss out because of an internet glitch then I usually go, phew, I still have all that money left in my hands and I'm glad I didn't blow it on something that will likely live out it's life in a tube!!!

[Harry Caul]

Agreed.  I'm putting in my first realistic bid on a Heritage sig auction tomorrow and, after everything I've read about in-house bidding, I'll definitely be using their live bid system to put in one bid at a time...

[Dr Hackenbush]

Be careful.  Hitting that big red button can become addicting

[Harry Caul]

By the way, I just wanted to take a minute to thank Bruce!  I'll be the first to admit that Bruce brings up the topic of shill bidding at sites like Heritage a lot.  And at times, it can come off as petty jabs at the competition (all the posts, the comics, etc...).

However, without his warnings I'm sure I would have merrily put in my max bid and possibly won it... at my max bid no doubt.  It is really too bad that companies resort to tactics like high BPs and in-house bidding.  For that I applaud Bruce and eMovieposter -- and Rich and movieposterbid for that matter.  I really truly hope they get more business because of it!

Taking this way back to the first post in this thread... I don't think it is a surprise to anyone to say that Heritage's site looks more polished.  I'm sure the reason they attract the big consignments (and the bid bidders to go with them) is due to some combination of their polish, their in-person auctions, and their history as the-place-to-go-for-big-ticket-posters.  However, history is constantly being re-written and I hope Bruce and Rich can eventually evolve their sites to take more and more business away from Heritage.  Hopefully someday we can all just relax, bid, and be happy when the best bidder wins!

[Harry Caul]

Be careful.  Hitting that big red button can become addicting

No worries, I'll be hooked up to a car battery with another big red button under my wife's hand...  There will be no bidding past our already agreed upon high bid. 

[Dr Hackenbush]

By the way, I just wanted to take a minute to thank Bruce!  I'll be the first to admit that Bruce brings up the topic of shill bidding at sites like Heritage a lot.  And at times, it can come off as petty jabs at the competition (all the posts, the comics, etc...).

However, without his warnings I'm sure I would have merrily put in my max bid and possibly won it... at my max bid no doubt.  It is really too bad that companies resort to tactics like high BPs and in-house bidding.  For that I applaud Bruce and eMovieposter -- and Rich and movieposterbid for that matter.  I really truly hope they get more business because of it!

To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath.  The books have sold for 30-50% less than what he paid for them, with few exceptions.  Could be market correction, could be the economy - who knows.  But I bet he wished HA shilled up the bids on his books.  That being said, Bruce and Rich both got some of my money tonight, and I was glad to spend it with them.

[Dr Hackenbush]

No worries, I'll be hooked up to a car battery with another big red button under my wife's hand...  There will be no bidding past our already agreed upon high bid. 

As I'm not married, I rely on self-flagellation to keep myself in line 

[Ari]

I Dont bid on HA or BH, for whatever reason, doesn't matter. But complaining about buyers premiums, well, its al there, happens on auctions all over the world, dont like it? protest with your wallet and don't use it. Some people wont buy off dealers direct as they think its too expensive, they prefer getting bargains off ebay, thats their choice, some people dont use ebay, as they are not certain of what they will get, some people don't trust auction houses, some don't trust certain dealers. Its a choice. This isnt air or water, we dont need it. Buy it if you want.
On  a slight tangent, but sort of related, many will know I sell Gold (and Rare Coins and Banknotes) for a living, people come in DAILY and ask for the price of gold, as in what we sell for, theres always a % over the spot/market price they see on TV, and they complain.
It makes me grey, how often I have to explain, WE ARE NOT A CHARITY, WE NEED TO MAKE MONEY (I put it nicely). Sometimes people walk out. They expect to be able to buy and sell for the same price. Regardless of wages, rent, power, taxes, etc etc etc we need to pay, PLUS its a business, need to make a profit.

So I guess in my rambling I am saying, HA (again I dont bid or sell through - no desire) are there to make a buck, if they charge both buyer and seller, and both know (or are to lazy to read the fine print) thats fine, if they bid on their own auctions, while I dont like the idea, if its legal (I dont know) and is disclosed, ditto.

I am sure Ive said it before, I dont like MacDonalds, thats why I dont eat there.

[Bruce]

"To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath"

Remember that when the "house" in an auction is solely the auctioneer (as in your friend's case), they only get a percentage of the final sale (around 30% to 35%). So if they were able to cause the prices to go higher through nefarious means, they would only profit by a small part of that added amount.

But when they own the items they are offering, they make 100% of the extra money! So they have a huge vested interest in manipulating the prices of items they own themselves higher, but a much smaller interest in doing so with consignments. THIS IS WHY IT IS CRUCIAL THAT THE AUCTIONS REVEAL WHAT ITEMS THEY IN FACT OWN (and in New York State it is the LAW that they must do so).

Unfortunately Texas does not have this law (they also allow consignors to bid on their own items and to allow "reserves" to be over the high estimate).

The above explains why some bids get "mysteriously maxed" while others do not. In one case the house has a huge incentive to do so, and in the other, they don't have nearly the incentive (plus they can buy the item through their house bidder, re-consign the item to their next auction as their own consignment, and THEN mysteriously max the bids, when they now profit far more!).

Bruce

[Dr Hackenbush]

"To be fair, I know of one guy that consigned incredible high grade runs of comics to Heritage over the past few months and has taken a bath"

Remember that when the "house" in an auction is solely the auctioneer (as in your friend's case), they only get a percentage of the final sale (around 30% to 35%). So if they were able to cause the prices to go higher through nefarious means, they would only profit by a small part of that added amount.

I would think that any auction house would want to get as much as possible for its consigners.  If they don't, it may cause future consignments to go to some other venue.  I've never known an auction house to turn down money, no matter how little it is.  When you're selling a collection valued near 1M, every nickel adds up

[Carson]

Ostensibly HA is an auction house. In reality, HA is a retailer overseeing which items go for what amount in keeping consignors pleased, prospective consignors interested and business at Heritage moving right along. HA reserves the right to influence outcomes in the fine print of their user agreement; a fact buried in fine print for a reason.  

As Ari's said many times and correct each time: don't like, don't buy. I closed my account with Heritage end of 2007 for that reason. Today will be my first bid with them in two years via a friend attending; I'm willing to play by their fine-print rules today to win a rarity I've been after for 10 years. They have excellent material up.

Examples of maxed bids and comic books going cheap are great but, in a buttshell all that matters is those bidding Heritage understand, by rights of the fine print, Heritage reserves the right to bid on and influence the outcome of your auctions. I refer to it as fine-print permitted shill bidding as that's precisely what it is. Others have more tolerant names for it.

[Dr Hackenbush]

Hope you win what you're after, Carson.  Many lots have been ending below their estimates, so hopefully that bodes well for you

[Bruce]

Dr Hackenbush

Either you are misunderstanding what I wrote, or you are INTENTIONALLY misunderstanding what I wrote!

Of course all auction houses want to get the most for their consignors, because they get more moneywhen the items sell for more.

The question at hand was whether an auction would do something unethical or dishonest to cause items to sell for more (like maxing the supposed secret bids by raising the reserve to that amount, or by having a "house bidder" enter a bid just under that amount).

I pointed out that, when the auction house owns the item they make around three times more money than when it is a consignment, so they have FAR more incentive to do something unethical or dishonest.

And of course, when the dollar price is high, the amount they will profit by their unethical or dishonest action goes way up, so they have FAR more incentive then too.

Bruce

[Dr Hackenbush]

You're right, I misunderstood what you wrote.  I went back and reread it and agree with most of what you said 

[Bruce]

Thanks Doctor!

Bruce

[Zorba]

Ive just recently had my first experiences with both Emovie and Heritage. Its only one experience each but it did leave what Im afraid will be a lasting memory.

Emovie graded more accurately, delivered at greater speed and did it without me having to pay the premium. Not all bad for Heritage as they did package very well.

I will be more hesitant to participate in Heritage auctions than Emovie auctions in the future. Im not so sure if its fair based on such a small sample but I am human and I now have a bit od a bias. 

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Zorba

now you just have to visit www.movieposterbid.com and register as a bidder

we have weekly 99 cents auctions and sell lots of great stuff too.

Just ask some o fthe members here!!

Rich

[Ari]

its true

[quadbod]

Zorba

now you just have to visit www.movieposterbid.com and register as a bidder

we have weekly 99 cents auctions and sell lots of great stuff too.

Just ask some o fthe members here!!

Rich

... not to mention some scarce old quads ...

http://www.movieposterbid.com/search.asp?nsearch=quadbod

Best wishes,
Terry - www.quadbod.co.uk