Author Topic: WHY is dry mounting evil?  (Read 24635 times)

Offline jayn_j

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WHY is dry mounting evil?
« on: August 07, 2011, 01:53:13 PM »
I'm going to express an opinion that may be blasphemous here.

I have heard over the years that dry mounting a poster is evil, the worst, and an unreversible desecration of a poster.  But I have to ask why dry mounting is so evil, yet linenbacking is an acceptable preservation technique?

As I have mentioned before, I grew up the son of a portrait photographer and was dry mounting photographs by the age of 5 or 6.  Dry mounting is a technique that is a lot easier to learn than linenbacking, and it will stabilize a poster that needs help.

To support this, here are some things I know.
1. Modern dry mount tissues are all ph neutral.  No acid problems.  Some archival ones are actually buffered.
2. There are "removable" dry mount tissues out there.  These tend to bond at lower temperatures and the glue is a bit less invasive.  They can be removed by applying heat and carefully separating.  Probably at the same effort as removing kraft backing by a restorer.  Something to be left to a professional, but not the "impossible" that has been presented.
3. Dry Mounting can be done on a wide variety of backings.  True, it is mostly done with stiff cardboard which hurts the ability to roll and ship the poster.  However, I have dry mounted paper onto cardstock in the past and this can be rolled.
4. Dry mounting can remove folds and wrinkles quickly and permanently.

Finally, here is a pointer to an interesting article on the subject from the art print world: http://www.pictureframingmagazine.com/pdfs/mastermount/Feb98_archivdrytissues.pdf

So, why isn't this a legitimate preservation technique?  Is it that Michaels and Off the Wall only use a hard to remove process on foamboard?  Easy to do it wrong?  Lack of education?  Been burned?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 01:54:04 PM by jayn_j »
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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 02:48:36 PM »
it sux because I don't like it
 nono

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Bruce

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 04:07:16 PM »
I wouldn't say evil, just irrationally despised (but to such a point that people like Rich have been known to foam at the mouth at the very hearing of the word).

It has a twin in the hobby, which is lamination. Yes, a poster that has had either done to it is expensive to ship.

But I have seen lots of posters that were drymounted (or laminated) 30 years ago, and they almost always look EXACTLY as they did before. Isn't that exactly what you want preservation to do? Sure 300 years from now they may look terrible, but all the other posters probably will too, and we will likely all be dead by then.

So my advice is, if you can get a drymounted (or laminated) for a super bargain and want to display it, do so (but know that it may well always sell for a huge discount to current "retail").

Bruce

Offline holiday

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 05:26:34 PM »
I don't like anything which fundamentally alters the poster, unless it's absolutely necessary to preserve the poster from ruin, and then only linen.  I just don't get drymounting.  Dry humping, yes, but not drymounting.
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Offline stewart boyle

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 06:13:15 PM »
I don't like anything which fundamentally alters the poster, unless it's absolutely necessary to preserve the poster from ruin, and then only linen.  I just don't get drymounting.  Dry humping, yes, but not drymounting.
I tried really hard to wait for more input from the top table..but if jayns suggestion that dry mounting does not mean a permanent stabiliser,for instance, jayn suggested that such mountings can be professionally reversed..
I wondered if any sort of paper memory would be increased if you dry mounted ?
Would a poster that has been removed from dry mounting suffer as a result  of seperation?

I hope someone makes sense of my questions..im 6 vodkas in..

Stew

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 06:15:13 PM »
I just don't get drymounting.  Dry humping, yes, but not drymounting.

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Online Tob

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2011, 06:52:44 PM »
I always thought it was due to the principle that conservationist framing should be completely reversible...dry mounting may help with stability issues due to the size of posters (in terms of paper rippling for example), but it seems like the adhesive of choice often isn't reversible. Dunno if that's the reason so many stay clear though.

I have a dry mounted print from on artist I really like on my wall. The print was much cheaper as it had been dry mounted...I bought it as it'll always hang on my wall and I don't care, but I suppose it does have an impact on re-sell value.

Offline jayn_j

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 11:11:02 PM »
I tried really hard to wait for more input from the top table..but if jayns suggestion that dry mounting does not mean a permanent stabiliser,for instance, jayn suggested that such mountings can be professionally reversed..
I wondered if any sort of paper memory would be increased if you dry mounted ?
Would a poster that has been removed from dry mounting suffer as a result  of separation?

Well, dry mounting is a heat process, so the poster must be heated.  Temperature varies, but 250-275 is common.  The low temp dry mounting materials are designed to work at 180-200 deg F.  It does not involve soaking, but it would involve keeping the poster hot while the backing and tissue were peeled away.  This could cause heat damage to the inks and also stress already damaged paper.  From what I have seen of articles describing removal of old kraft and linenbacking, that is already a factor in reversing these processes.

The point is that we simply say it is evil, and we really don't know.  This may very well be an area for experimentation, especially if we use some of the newer high strength thin papers being marketed these days.
-Jay-

Offline Neo

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »
There are a lot of theories on dry mounting and linen backing.  One framer told me that he tried to reverse a dry mounted piece that he had used material that claimed to be "reversible", and he spent hours trying with no success.  Another framer basically said that dry mounting is the best thing since sliced bread and linen backing is a flawed trade.  This page (about 4 lines into "Framing a Linen Backed Poster") describes how even the reversible dry mounting techniques are destructive in nature.  From a logic perspective (without researching any - if there are any - long term studies of linen backing), linen backing seems like the best method to preserve and restore paper.  This article describes how there are maps were found that were linen backed around 1900 for preservation.  It would be interesting to see a long-term study of dry mounting vs. linen backing to see which is better in that respect.  As soon as I can get my flux capacitor working again, I'll let y'all know.  8)

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 04:41:46 AM »
dry mounting sux
I says so

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 08:29:34 AM »
There are a lot of theories on dry mounting and linen backing.  One framer told me that he tried to reverse a dry mounted piece that he had used material that claimed to be "reversible", and he spent hours trying with no success.  Another framer basically said that dry mounting is the best thing since sliced bread and linen backing is a flawed trade.  This page (about 4 lines into "Framing a Linen Backed Poster") describes how even the reversible dry mounting techniques are destructive in nature.  From a logic perspective (without researching any - if there are any - long term studies of linen backing), linen backing seems like the best method to preserve and restore paper.  This article describes how there are maps were found that were linen backed around 1900 for preservation.  It would be interesting to see a long-term study of dry mounting vs. linen backing to see which is better in that respect.  As soon as I can get my flux capacitor working again, I'll let y'all know.  8)

I think most of this simply says that we don't know.  One of the things the literature says is that there has been no formal studies on the long term effects of dry mounting with modern dry mount adhesives.  I do have some anecdotal evidence though.  My sister and I have about 40 photographs that have been dry mounted.  These photographs range in age from the 1960s back to as early as 1910.  All are mounted on heavy cardboard.  None of them are separating from the board.  None show any signs of foxing or discoloring.  They have mostly been kept in the dark.

Now, I don't know how this would apply to posters.  Photographs are probably tougher and meant to last longer.  They are also smaller. The largest items we have are 16x20" so I can't comment on shrinkage over time.

What I keep seeing is that we don't know, and that nobody is willing to find out.  Obviously it takes years to understand this.  Also someone who does restoration and linenbacking may be the best source, but there is also reasons they may not be neutral.  Linenbacking is profitable and has a steep learning curve.  Dry mounting is easier and would allow for more competition.  We don't know, but we ought to find out.
-Jay-

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 09:06:57 AM »

Offline Neo

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 01:56:35 PM »
I think most of this simply says that we don't know.  One of the things the literature says is that there has been no formal studies on the long term effects of dry mounting with modern dry mount adhesives.  I do have some anecdotal evidence though.  My sister and I have about 40 photographs that have been dry mounted.  These photographs range in age from the 1960s back to as early as 1910.  All are mounted on heavy cardboard.  None of them are separating from the board.  None show any signs of foxing or discoloring.  They have mostly been kept in the dark.

Now, I don't know how this would apply to posters.  Photographs are probably tougher and meant to last longer.  They are also smaller. The largest items we have are 16x20" so I can't comment on shrinkage over time.

What I keep seeing is that we don't know, and that nobody is willing to find out.  Obviously it takes years to understand this.  Also someone who does restoration and linenbacking may be the best source, but there is also reasons they may not be neutral.  Linenbacking is profitable and has a steep learning curve.  Dry mounting is easier and would allow for more competition.  We don't know, but we ought to find out.

That's interesting about your photographs.  I have a few posters that were dry mounted about 16 years ago and they do not show any signs of damage.  The reversibility aspect is also something to consider, as some say reversal of dry mounted items, although not impossible, would cause a lot of damage to the items.  It's probably something that will never be fully agreed upon, as opinions vary a lot on the subject.

Offline stewart boyle

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 02:31:35 PM »
Jay,i could really pick your brains on this,because i have so many questions (most of them probably dumb to you).
But i dont want to mess this Topic up..
This is great so far,I hope this debate develops more.  thumbup

Stew

Rich....why you say so? ;)

Offline Harry Caul

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 03:38:01 PM »
The reversibility aspect is also something to consider, as some say reversal of dry mounted items, although not impossible, would cause a lot of damage to the items.

I have had a poster removed from foam core and I can assure you it is very damaging to the poster and quite costly.  Basically, the entire back layer of the paper (which was glued down) was lost.  In addition, some of the *front* of the poster (i.e. the artwork) was also lost.  I'm not sure if newer dry mounting is guaranteed to be reversible, but older style dry mounting is definitely NOT.  If you have the choice between linen and dry mounting, I can't imagine why anyone would choose the latter.

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 03:50:26 PM »
Rich....why you say so? ;)

because it sux

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 04:32:10 PM »
I have had a poster removed from foam core and I can assure you it is very damaging to the poster and quite costly.  Basically, the entire back layer of the paper (which was glued down) was lost.  In addition, some of the *front* of the poster (i.e. the artwork) was also lost.  I'm not sure if newer dry mounting is guaranteed to be reversible, but older style dry mounting is definitely NOT.  If you have the choice between linen and dry mounting, I can't imagine why anyone would choose the latter.

I was quite careful in what I specified.  Just as there are different formulations of glue, there are also different formulations of dry mount tissue.  I am trying to limit the discussion to the "removable".  I am also suggesting that anything we might try stays away from foamcore.  I am looking toward backing on poster board which would be rollable, variations of non fibre based thin paper, and possibly linen.

I guess I am working myself up to doing some experiments.  I would be looking at ease of use, removability, how it would work with restorative processes, etc.  Everything except long term stability.  That requires a long time by definition, and I think there is enough evidence on the net that it is a long term stable technique.

Don't expect much quickly.  I am going to need to find a heat press and research tissues.  The heat press I would love is vacuum operated and can fit a three sheet.  Unfortunately it costs $10k :(  Need to find the $200 craigslist solution instead.
-Jay-

Offline jayn_j

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 04:36:51 PM »
because it sux

I think I am talking about something different that what you have experienced.  I would never dry mount using Michaels, Hobby Lobby or any commercial framing place.  They use nasty tissue.

I think we could develop a reversible technique that is more cost effective, and am looking to experiment with that.
-Jay-

Offline Ari

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 06:38:36 PM »
I was given a number of LAMINATED Daybills,  I would never get it done myself, but I lve therm.. why? I stick them on my wall. Its a shame, BUT if they werent laminated I couldnt afford to have them all framed, so they would sit in a box.
When I move Il take pics. (maybe I have Ill go look)
An Error Has Occurred!
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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 10:22:10 PM »
the question: WHY is dry mounting evil?

the answer: because it stole my candy when I was 7

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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 05:38:40 PM »
I just checked
Dry Mounting is still evil

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Offline jayn_j

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 06:34:02 PM »
You're silly.
-Jay-

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 11:23:54 PM »
You're silly.

there's nothing silly about evil dry mounting

 moron1

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2011, 01:40:48 AM »
I actually have a real story for Rich's fake one.

When I was younger, how cool you were was in direct correlation to how many trading cards you had. My father refused to spend money on what he considered to be a worthless fad and a primitive form of gambling, so I didn't get many cards and was resultingly not very cool. When I did get cards, I took care of them, knowing that even if they weren't the most popular or desirable they were the only ones I would be getting. My collection grew very slowly, but I began to appreciate cards for their artwork and those that portrayed my favorite characters. My friends would amass enormous quantities of "worthless" cards and stuff them in shoebox after shoebox, while I gently tended to my collection. This experience helped me form my entire outlook on collecting, and it's followed me my entire life, and still holds very true with my poster collecting. I collect what I love, unconditionally, and taking care of them is a paramount priority.

Anyway, this ties into my perspective of dry-mounting.

Towards the end of my collecting, I got a very rare and desirable card. It was one of those that would be a crown-jewel of any kid's collection and would capture the attention of everybody I knew. After pulling it from the pack, I immediately placed it in a Mylar sleeve and carefully taped closed the opening.

Because I was unpopular as a child, I responded very naively to my new found friends. Kids lined up to see the card, hold the card, and tried to "be my best friend" in hopes of trading for it. Eventually, my actual "best friend" who had stopped talking to me because I was so lame came back on my radar. He suckered me into letting him "borrow" the card, and I told him he had to take very good care of it. He promised he'd keep it perfect shape.

Except he didn't. I don't know what his motivation was. Maybe he was just an idiot - we were like nine. But once he got home he broke the seal on the Mylar sleeve and exposed my perfect card to the elements. The foil on the image scratched very easily, on almost any rough surface, and his carpet covered it with minute but noticeable scratches. When he realized what he did, he busted out the tape dispenser and proceeded to mummify my card in clear tape.

The next day, he tried to return the card to me like nothing was wrong. To him, he'd fixed it. The integrity of the card hadn't been compromised in any way, in fact, now it was BETTER because it was safe wrapped up in tape. I cried like a baby, punched a boy for the first time, and ran home. I literally cried until I fell asleep, had nightmares about my card being ruined, and then woke up and cried.

I stopped collecting shortly thereafter.

Now that I'm older and have had the means, I've collected the original trading card sets to the fullest capacity I would have liked to have as a child. It's extremely satisfying to achieve a childhood dream, even if it is small and material, but that binder full of cards is a chronological diary of my entire childhood. I keep the binder in a briefcase under my bureau so I can grab it in case there's ever a flood or a fire. They're THAT important to me.

While most of my cards are in great condition, there was naturally that one special card I needed to re-acquire. It remains the crown-jewel of my collection now. It's professionally graded in a sonar-sealed encapsulation by the Professional Sports Authenticator and certified as "gem mint condition", the highest grade they can give after examining the entire surface with a microscope.

short version:
I don't like any restorative or protective techniques that in any way alter the original state of the item because of a traumatic incident during my first experience as a collector. Psychoanalytically, I only collect posters in unaltered condition because eleven years later I'm still trying to rectify the damage caused by a childhood friend who crushed my dreams with Scotch Tape.

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Re: WHY is dry mounting evil?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 01:56:31 AM »
I second Anthony.. Tape is also evil and should be hunted down to be burned at the stake alongside evil dry mounting
and then his evil ex-best friend should be wrapped in evil tape and dumped in the East River off Manhattan (alternately, the Ohio River downstream of Pittsburgh will do)

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