Author Topic: mgposter - how low can you go.  (Read 12356 times)

StoreThomas

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mgposter - how low can you go.
« on: January 21, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »
Ok, this took me a bit by surprise.

I'm Danish so I sometimes do a routine search on ebay for "danish poster". So today I did that search and I was kind of surprised to see that actually a lot of the posters shown were some I already had in my collection. Even the (excuse me) quite boring posters..... at a closer look I saw that they were posted as reproductions so I thought, hey why make a reproduction of a $10 Danish poster and then choose to fold it......then it hit me..... that son of a b*tch stole my pictures and use 'em on ebay to sell.... hell I don't know what' he's selling, but if he's blowing 'em up to the 27x40 size he's claiming they are I sure feel sorry for the hapless buyers if they actually recieve any posters - they must look like shit to be honest.

Here are a few examples

Notice the thin brown line in the bottom, that's my oak floor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lone-Wolf-McQuade-Poster-Movie-Danish-27x40-/180605437414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0cec45e6
http://www.movieposter.dk/Gallery/pages/image/imagepage833.html

Here's another obvious one, linen backed and rippled with a top corner missing
http://cgi.ebay.com/Between-Heaven-and-Hell-Poster-Movie-Danish-27x40-/150539578905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230cdbae19
http://www.movieposter.dk/Gallery/pages/image/imagepage694.html

Oh and this one is the best, a linenbacked badly worn Tobruk poster
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tobruk-Poster-Movie-Danish-27x40-Rock-Hudson-/180605431119?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0cec2d4f
http://www.movieposter.dk/Gallery/pages/image/imagepage1336.html

Anyone doubt me I'd be happy to produce new pictures of the same posters and many more found in his store with this search http://stores.ebay.com/MGPoster/_i.html?_nkw=danish&submit=Search&LH_TitleDesc=1&_sid=19991423.


So I mailed him and below is our communication


Dear bluhme1708,

You asked the following question:
----------
Question:
Please immediately stop using pictures of Danish movieposters taken from my site www.movieposter.dk or I'll report your sorry ass to ebay.

Thomas
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Answer:

Thank you for the email. You are a valued customer.
 
All photos used are digital scans of the actual items for sale from our own website.


----------
Regards,
MG Poster Customer Service
You can purchase direct at http://stores.channeladvisor.com/movieposters
- mgposter



So now of course I've reported his "sorry ass". Don't know if ebay want's to do anything about it, but hey I think i'd use this space to tell everybody to stay clearof that shop ;)

Tak care
Thomas

Offline kovacs01

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 01:33:41 PM »
Yup, thats moviegoods.  They will steal and make digital repros of any poster they can find anywhere.  They do not actually have those posters, but images they print to order.  You arent the first, and wont be the last.  Hell, they have even stolen custom fan art poster designs.  They dont bother to ask, nor do they care.  They bank on the fact that no one will have the legal might to fight them.  Of course, they found out otherwise when they tangled with Disney, but for the most part they are right.
Schan
Thanks.  You know what you did.
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Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »
Thomas.. as sad as it is, you took the photos, but you can't really claim ownership of very much because you don't own the copyrights to the item being imaged. This is the result of case law settled by the Bridgeman Art Library vs Corel Corp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp.

this is the reason Bruce, Myself and many other imprint our images to prevent "theft"

it's more aggravating when you create a website, add photos and find them taken by guys at other websites for their own web pages without at least giving attribution

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Offline brude

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 02:09:49 PM »
Yes, Thomas...Movie Goods sucks.
On another note, great collection of posters!  thumbup

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »
Hey Thomas, this issue came up in the "I Hate MovieGoods" thread.

The studios own the copyrights to these posters.  Recently, Disney and 20th Century Fox sued MovieGoods.  They ended up settling and MovieGoods agreed not to sell any more reproductions of their posters.  MovieGoods filed a motion to keep the settlement secret but the judge denied it.  Clearly, MovieGoods is worried other studios will sue them.  So your remedy is to contact the studios and let them know MovieGoods is illegally reproducing their posters.  (Most likely, of course, the studios already know and just don't care and don't think it's worth their time to sue them.)

The other issue related to this is whether it's OK to "borrow" images from Heritage, Emovie, and MoviePosterBid for your own site.  I was attacked by an anonymous poster on NS4 for "plagiarizing" Heritage's images by adding some of them to my Showcases page.  (Technically, I downsize them, clean them up, and restore them to close-to-mint condition, which may or may not be relevant to this issue.)   I argued that it was "fair use" to include some of them for non-commercial, educational and entertainment purposes and that, in any event, since the images have come from various sources, it was infeasible to attribute each image individually.

What do you all think?  Since the auctioneers' images have no copyright protection - and it appears auctioneers have the right to display images of copyrighted posters solely for the purposes of sale under the "first sale" doctrine - what attribution, if any, should be given to them?

Offline Zorba

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 02:50:35 PM »
The other issue related to this is whether it's OK to "borrow" images from Heritage, Emovie, and MoviePosterBid for your own site.  I was attacked by an anonymous poster on NS4 for "plagiarizing" Heritage's images by adding some of them to my Showcases page.  (Technically, I downsize them, clean them up, and restore them to close-to-mint condition, which may or may not be relevant to this issue.)   I argued that it was "fair use" to include some of them for non-commericial, educational and entertainment purposes and that, in any event, since the images have come from various sources, it was infeasible to attribute each image individually.

What do you all think?  

I am on your side. I think that since you are not using them for personal gain ala mg then its all good.

BTW...I read that thread and that poster is by definition a gutless pussy.

StoreThomas

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 03:05:31 PM »
How could I forget that mgposter was moviegoods.......

Anyhow I didn't expect ebay to care that I reported 'em, just wanted to share my story and help newbies to stay clear of mgposter... as I learmed from another well known movieposter forum a few years ago.




StoreThomas

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »
Yes, Thomas...Movie Goods sucks.
On another note, great collection of posters!  thumbup

Thanks brute, did you notice that I'm still holding on to the Marmaduke poster for you that you mentioned in a post half a year ago. Now thats a great danish poster :)  

http://www.movieposter.dk/Gallery/pages/image/imagepage823.html

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 03:32:08 PM »
Anyhow I didn't expect ebay to care that I reported 'em....

Ebay will not do anything.  Ebay makes a ton of money from commissions on sales of unlicensed posters and MovieBads is probably the #1 seller on Ebay of unlicensed posters.

Ebay generally makes a ton of money from sales of counterfeit items and does the absolute minimum (or less) to prevent their sale.  See this article.

StoreThomas

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 03:39:04 PM »
Ebay will not do anything.  Ebay makes a ton of money from commissions on sales of unlicensed posters and MovieBads is probably the #1 seller on Ebay of unlicensed posters.

Ebay generally makes a ton of money from sales of counterfeit items and does the absolute minimum (or less) to prevent their sale.  See this article.

Exactly my thought when I wrote the complaint, but hey it made me feel better ;)

guest8

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 03:55:25 PM »
Ebays policy only allows the VeRO to stop sales .. Which I can only imagine is kind of a pain to verify to them in the first place not to mention that they (the studios) would have to have a team of people doing random (or focused) searches to find items on eBay to take down .. and honestly (especially as far as posters go) why would the studios bother .. I mean its not like they are losing money the posters were never to be sold to begin with .. so what does it matter to them if someone is copying them and selling them its not hurting their sales unless theres a big market at the time for commercial items (like Twilight or TDK) and even then after the hype has died down then its pointless again ..

Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 04:10:00 PM »
Ebays policy only allows the VeRO to stop sales .. Which I can only imagine is kind of a pain to verify to them in the first place not to mention that they (the studios) would have to have a team of people doing random (or focused) searches to find items on eBay to take down .. and honestly (especially as far as posters go) why would the studios bother .. I mean its not like they are losing money the posters were never to be sold to begin with .. so what does it matter to them if someone is copying them and selling them its not hurting their sales unless theres a big market at the time for commercial items (like Twilight or TDK) and even then after the hype has died down then its pointless again ..

The studios wouldn't have to monitor Ebay sales.  Just cut them off at the source: MovieGoods.

Disney sells lots of commercial movie posters and MG was siphoning their poster sales, so they had an incentive to sue.  The other studios may have less incentive.

Anyway, looking through the copyright lawsuits it's amazing how trivial the violation has to be to trigger a lawsuit.  If a TV show shows a poster in the background, it must get a license from the poster copyright owner, or it will be sued.

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 04:13:30 PM »
What do you all think?  Since the auctioneers' images have no copyright protection - and it appears auctioneers have the right to display images of copyrighted posters solely for the purposes of sale under the "first sale" doctrine - what attribution, if any, should be given to them?

you can do whatever you want with the images, if you have a desire. That is ultimately the decision of the courts in the Bridgeman v Corel case. You can use them, sell them, do whatever with them without any attribution at all and without sending anyone a % of your profits. I actually ran into this problem as a publisher of  public domain comics from the 30s-50s. I spent about $50k in cash and countless years on this project from 1989-2002 at which point some assholes in the UK started swiping my bit. I went so far as to contact an attorney in the UK and after several conversations, he felt he didn't have anywhere to go with it, so I dropped the issue and ceased selling the pdf downloads (ultimately at a loss I estimate at $250,000 in time and money)

now keep in mind, copyright laws vary from country to country, but US law applies because MG is here in the USA and any lawsuit filed anywhere else is useless (because you have to be able to get $$ from the courts and clearly Corel muddied that up)

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Dread_Pirate_Mel

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 04:24:59 PM »
you can do whatever you want with the images, if you have a desire. That is ultimately the decision of the courts in the Bridgeman v Corel case. You can use them, sell them, do whatever with them without any attribution at all and without sending anyone a % of your profits.

Rich, you cannot sell images of copyrighted posters without a license from the copyright owner. The images in Bridgeman were of "paintings by European masters" for which copyright did not apply.

 Although MoviePosterDB is doing that, the studios could shut it down easily if they wanted to.  The studios could also shut down MovieBads, but they - other than Disney - haven't tried yet. The only issue is international enforcement.  I think MoviePosterDB is in Europe.  

Offline stewart boyle

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 04:28:02 PM »
The studios wouldn't have to monitor Ebay sales.  Just cut them off at the source: MovieGoods.

Disney sells lots of commercial movie posters and MG was siphoning their poster sales, so they had an incentive to sue.  The other studios may have less incentive.

Anyway, looking through the copyright lawsuits it's amazing how trivial the violation has to be to trigger a lawsuit.  If a TV show shows a poster in the background, it must get a license from the poster copyright owner, or it will be sued.

Mel...you just brought back a question i have been wanting to know an answer for years...

In Grease the movie...when they are all in the soda shop..i think its just before Beauty School Dropout begins.. there is a poster in the background that has been digitally obscured..i think its a Coke poster,but i cant tell.
Any movie buffs have any idea??

Stew

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 04:35:16 PM »
correct Mel - COPYRIGHTED
however, many posters (if not most) pre-1968 do not enjoy copyright protection due to a lack of due process to keep them in copyright, if they were ever properly copyrighted to begin with. The amount of public domain material in this area is staggering

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Offline stewart boyle

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 04:39:34 PM »
Rich, you cannot sell images of copyrighted posters without a license from the copyright owner.  Although MoviePosterDB is doing that, the studios could shut it down easily if they wanted to.  The studios could also shut down MovieBads, but they - other than Disney - haven't tried yet. The only issue is international enforcement.  I think MoviePosterDB is in Europe.  


In the Uk, i recently did a copyright search regards posters.
Older hand drawn posters is an easier analogy to use... The Copyright of the image belongs to the artist who drew the poster..not the studio or whoever commisioned the poster.
This copyright is valid for 70 years after the artists death.
You can freely distribute any second hand clone of an original poster.
If you then implant your own artistict slant on one of these clones,You then own the copyright to that image.

I`ll bet there are loads of country to country variations and interpretations to copyrights.
Its murky waters indeed bud.

Stew

guest8

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 04:40:03 PM »
Mel...you just brought back a question i have been wanting to know an answer for years...

In Grease the movie...when they are all in the soda shop..i think its just before Beauty School Dropout begins.. there is a poster in the background that has been digitally obscured..i think its a Coke poster,but i cant tell.
Any movie buffs have any idea??

Stew



Frost Palace Scenes

Scenes inside the Frosty Palace contain obvious 'blurring' of various signage. Prior to the film's release, the film's producers had not received permission to use any Coca-Cola trademarks. Furthermore, Coca-Cola refused to allow its signage to be shown due to the raunchy nature of the film. The 'blurring' covered up trademarked menu signage and a large wall poster

Offline stewart boyle

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 04:48:44 PM »

Frost Palace Scenes

Scenes inside the Frosty Palace contain obvious 'blurring' of various signage. Prior to the film's release, the film's producers had not received permission to use any Coca-Cola trademarks. Furthermore, Coca-Cola refused to allow its signage to be shown due to the raunchy nature of the film. The 'blurring' covered up trademarked menu signage and a large wall poster

Thank you fallenangel1  happy1

Finally i now know !

Stew

Offline 50s

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 04:56:38 PM »
Hi Thomas, sorry to hear someone has done this to you. I agree with Ted, nice collection you have.

The images on ebay are the same as yours, but what surprises me is they appear to be manufacturing the prints without any photoshopping to your images ie leaving the image as is, warts and all, eg including paper weights, poster damage. They must be bulk finding images, and near automatically turning them into auctions and assuming there is value in even a small percentage actually being sold.

I agree with Rich, watermarking is part of the solution for prevention of image theft, sadly, and likely the best solution. Sure some watermarks can be easy to remove as Mel once showed, but others can be difficult near impossible to remove, however saying that, don't count on that always being the case with technological advances. Watermarks also don't need to be as prominent as on emovieposter, they can be less noticeable and more effective in preventing reproduction. It is just sad we can't show off our posters in their full glory, if we are concerned about them be used by others.

I notice you have, in Bruces terms, supersized images. That is likely what led them to your site, and made it worth their while, eg doing a search on the web for supersized images is easy. They probably have a mostly automated process. It is great to be able to show off posters in all their detail, but, to prevent the likes of moviegoods, maybe providing smaller images may be required. Your supersized images are about 3000px tall, which gives them about 75 dots per inch for a 40" print, which they could then blur a bit to smooth out. It would still look not very good, but maybe ok to old people losing their sight. For other collectors who are also showing off their posters online, it may be best limiting the size of their images to 1500px, to greatly reduce the chance of your images being turned into 40" prints. Though even 1500px size or smaller can still be made beautifully into smaller products such as 'Mini Pill Containers' and other things I have seen on eBay.

Reuse of easily taken images from the web will likely be impossible to prevent, just like trying to bring an end to illegal music/software downloading and sharing. Sure, some people will be chased, but it is just a drop in the ocean what gets prevented. Because of these people who use images without permission/credit, generally being inconsiderate, will unfortunately (as has been mentioned previously) result in some sites with great sources of images removing them or embedding watermarks or charging for their viewing. 

StoreThomas

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 05:14:10 PM »
Thanks for the advice Steve.

To be honest I really don't care if people use my images, as long as they start out by asking politely ;)

And as long as I don't notice any performance issues on my internet connection. If this happens I think I might have to go the "watermarking way" to save my bandwith ;)

Offline 50s

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 05:24:46 PM »
And as long as I don't notice any performance issues on my internet connection. If this happens I think I might have to go the "watermarking way" to save my bandwith ;)

There is a much better solution to bandwidth theft than watermarking. People might still show your images with the watermark. The better thing to do is enable hot link prevention for images in your web host control panel - a setting you should be able to do. Or email your hosting company - it is just one short line to add in a web server configuration file. The result will be on websites, as you may have seen, images saying something like 'Dont steal our images' or the like. None of your images will then appear on other sites due to them linking to files on your site.  

StoreThomas

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 05:30:01 PM »
Thanks. Got my site set up on my own home server so I'll just find a free hotlink blocker somewhere :)

Offline MoviePosterBid.com

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 05:34:24 PM »
This copyright is valid for 70 years after the artists death.

Stew

this is current copyright law.. but it isn't retroactive in all issues. The question is "what copyright laws were in place when the article was created and what updates to copyright law exist extending any such rights to additional years before such item falls into the public domain". 

In the matter of current law, anything you create is copyrighted for 75 years after death. However, in the matter of material created in 1935, there is a whole 'nother law altogether

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Offline stewart boyle

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Re: mgposter - how low can you go.
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 05:43:11 PM »
Stew

this is current copyright law.. but it isn't retroactive in all issues. The question is "what copyright laws were in place when the article was created and what updates to copyright law exist extending any such rights to additional years before such item falls into the public domain".  

In the matter of current law, anything you create is copyrighted for 75 years after death. However, in the matter of material created in 1935, there is a whole 'nother law altogether

Thanks again Rich.. i was wondering,if we use Andy Warhols Campbell Soup as an example.
His painting is a faithful reproduction of Campbells labelling etc... but his take on it means Campbells soup have no legal recourse to sue for breach of copyright.?
Mels tidying up of the Bride Of Frankenstein poster as another example should mean that Mel now owns the copyright to that image.** edit "..to his image"
Am i getting this wrong?

Stew
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:01:16 PM by stewart boyle »