Why Dont Dealers or Auction Houses Mention Restorers' Names?

[erik1925]

Very true, Chris, in those cases.

My main point and question, tho, is about auction houses and dealers that send posters out themselves to be backed and restored. Most times, we see some vague line that reads something like: "Prior to backing the poster had XXX problems", (often outlined in great detail), then continues: "It was worked on by a well known or talented restorer who addressed the issues and it now displays wonderfully." (paraphrasing here, of course).

The person who did the work is known, yet unnamed. That, at least to me, shouldn't be a secret, but the name indicated, just as all the pre- and post-restore issues were mentioned.

[CSM]

Maybe there are contractual issues between the auction house/site and the restorer in seeming to endorse the restorer (and their business) by stating them by name?  What if the buyer is unsatisfied - does that fall on the auctioneer or the restorer?  If the posters were consigned who ultimately has the contract with the restorer (i.e. in situations as with Heritage where they send out consigned posters to be restored prior to auction)? 

I agree the transparency would be welcome but there are likely several levels that need to be sorted out.

[erik1925]

These are all questions that would be great to have answers for.

Though I cant imagine that a restorer's name couldnt be revealed?  But again, that's one of those questions that I hope can be answered.

Customers not satisfied AFTER winning a poster, due to restoration issues.... I wonder if this has ever happened before, and if the winning bidder has any recourse? But when supersize pics and descriptions are offered, that probably protects the auction house or dealer from that kind of buyer's remorse.

[erik1925]

Plus, I cant imagine that organizations like HA, MPB, MPE or emp would put something up for auction, had it been badly restored. And has been pointed out in another thread, too (http://www.allposterforum.com/index.php/topic,6397.0.html), Rich made no bones about mentioning (and showing) the great work that Mario Cueva did on that Searchers HS that he auctioned.

[CineMasterpieces]

why?

because the vast majority of potential buyers/bidders do not really care who did the work as long as it was done properly. You can always contact the auction house or ebay seller and ask them if it is that important to you. In over 15 years as a dealer I think I've received maybe one or two emails asking us who restored an item we were selling.

[erik1925]

I guess my point was to put the restorer's name or studio/company name in the description (if known), after explaining all the work that had been done. Rather than saying, "It was backed by a talented restorer...." replace "talented restorer" with the name/company. It would certainly be easy enough to do.

Whether that info is asked about or wanted (or not) is actually beside the point. And that way, that added info is there for everyone to see. The more information, the better.

[CineMasterpieces]

You asked a question, I gave you an answer. My answer is not "beside the point". The truth is that most buyers (not all) consider the information to be irrelevant. If Bruce, or Grey, or other auction house decision makers were constantly bombarded with querys about this then I'm sure the information would be included on a regular basis. They aren't, so it isn't.

Usually the posters we are selling have expert restoration and look fantastic. Once in a while we will get in a restored poster that has had terrible work done or it is a very old restoration. Sometimes this can't be seen in a photo so we describe it as accurately as we can.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

While I agree it would be great to know who has worked on which posters (and exactly what was done to them) - I think the difficulty lies in when posters have been resold many times over.  Confirmation of the original restorer is simply lost by that point since there really is no standard or accepted documentation method in the hobby that stays with the poster over time...

this is correct

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I sort of agree with most everyone in this thread to some degree

when I restored the Searchers HS, I was happy to give Mario some promo, but that may not be an option for everyone as Chris says. It is indeed possible that a corporation like HA or others may have confidentiality agreements that prevent the revelation. Sometimes a company only uses a single restorer and are happy to answer any question (Profiles I think would tell you John Davis did any restoration for them, even after he screwed up the authentication of several pieces, some of which came from Haggard) and others won't tell you anything (for a variety of reasons from "Let them find their own linenbacker. Maybe he'll suck and it's good for my own biz that they get a guy who sucks" to "if I give out the name and he gets too busy, his price goes up & maybe the time element increases also" to "why the heck would I help my competitor find a good restorer?" etc).

another factor is that sometime a large business gives a person so much work, they don't do anything for anyone else and they don't want headhunters hiring them away

there are a lot of good points here, on both sides of this fence

[MoviePosterBid.com]

by the way, I hear that someone actually thinks Posterfix does good work

Say it ain't so, Joe.....

[erik1925]

I sort of agree with most everyone in this thread to some degree

when I restored the Searchers HS, I was happy to give Mario some promo, but that may not be an option for everyone as Chris says. It is indeed possible that a corporation like HA or others may have confidentiality agreements that prevent the revelation. Sometimes a company only uses a single restorer and are happy to answer any question (Profiles I think would tell you John Davis did any restoration for them, even after he screwed up the authentication of several pieces, some of which came from Haggard) and others won't tell you anything (for a variety of reasons from "Let them find their own linenbacker. Maybe he's suck and it's good for my own biz that they get a guy who sucks" to "if I give out the name and he gets too busy, his price goes up & maybe the time element increases also" to "why the heck would I help my competitor find a good restorer?" etc).

another factor is that sometime a large business gives a person so much work, they don't do anything for anyone else and they don't want headhunters hiring them away

there are a lot of good points here, on both sides of this fence

Interesting perspectives to consider, all the way around. Thanks, Rich.

[MoviePosterBid.com]

I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.

[erik1925]

I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.

Interesting, Rich. This is one line of thought that never crossed my mind. I wonder how "popular" this angle is?

[Charlie]

Because when it is finally accepted that prominent restorers use wallpaper paste as a default (yes you can ask for conservative wheat paste) from premade buckets and easy mix powders and a big money collector that didn't know finds out... Dealers would have to face the music.  Why would seller's want the responsibility of vouching for restorers...  Also why keeping the restorer unknown protects them. 

Or in the recent case John Reid had double digit daybills start to develop spots.  If that restorer had been named, all posters from that restorer would be tainted going forward.  Can you imagine if in 10 years all of a prominent restorer's posters started developing problems.  In some ways not knowing protects sellers. 

Which bring us to the real problem is that once a restored poster is out of a restorer's hands there is no way to track the environmental conditions that the poster was stored in etc.  Two posters, one stored in an archival environment and one stored in a damp bulding won't be in the same, say condition of stability...  One might already have mold growth the other not.   But now you have put those undocumented storage conditions on the seller and restorer both. 

It is exactly the same reason restorers don't mark their posters.  Why doesn't Postermountain emboss a corner of their work?  Without identification it removes the liability of future issues either caused by poor practice or poor collector storage.  It's really a win-win situation for restorers.  They can always blame it on the collector for improper storage.  I would think HA and Bruce wouldn't have any problems naming the restorer if the restorer themselves marked and guaranteed their work.  If it did happen, there would have to be an intensive tracking program to keep up with the owners or even environmental tags to alert moisture conditions.     

It's just not feasible to place the liability on a seller or restorer.  It's not feasible to ever truly know what has been done or what environmental conditions a restored poster has been in.

[erik1925]

I also forgot another reason - some dealers make a side business of agenting work to linenbackers for a piece of the action and wouldn't want to jeopardize their income stream.

Kind of sounds like a gamblin' man who lives in Las Vegas replied here. 

[MoviePosterBid.com]

Kind of sounds like a gamblin' man who lives in Las Vegas replied here. 

a piece of the action always starts on Wall Street

[Neo]

Great info. here.  An interesting look from salespersons, buyers, and restoration experts' perspectives.

A lot of good reasons why the restorers' names would not be mentioned.

It's probably relatively simple for someone who has handled a lot of posters, to see if there are any visible blunders in the work.  As Charlie was saying though, there could be a lot of potentially negative things that no one could know about, unless they had actually seen every step in the preservation/restoration process.  Although some sellers claim "the work was done well," or make no mention that nearly the entire piece was painted (aka restored), etc., to each his/her own.

[erik1925]

If the work was sloppy or really bad, then I can certainly see why that name might not want to be mentioned (as in any piece done by Posterfix/Cloutier), but Im sure that folks like Grey will look at a piece (if it's one they received to consign that was already backed) and determine if it should be included in their auction, especially if it looks questionable.

But super size images also help to show, to a degree, what has been done, along with detailed descriptions. Again, if the seller sent the the poster out himself to be done, then he/she knows exactly the pre-condition of the poster as well as what was done to it, when it comes back.

[Neo]

If the work was sloppy or really bad, then I can certainly see why that name might not want to be mentioned (as in any piece done by Posterfix/Cloutier), but Im sure that folks like Grey will look at a piece (if it's one they received to consign that was already backed) and determine if it should be included in their auction, especially if it looks questionable.

But super size images also help to show, to a degree, what has been done, along with detailed descriptions. Again, if the seller sent the the poster out himself to be done, then he/she knows exactly the pre-condition of the poster as well as what was done to it, when it comes back.

Right.  I'm sure a main reason is that it's just a lot more simple for sellers to go on the here and now, that is, how the item appears in its current state.  When people have too many options, things to consider, etc., it makes buying something more of a process, which may negatively affect sales.

[erik1925]

Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.

[Charlie]

Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.

I wouldn't have any additional confidence in these pieces.  All irreversible work with most likely wallpaper paste and not much conservation practice/standards included in backing them.  They may be pretty though...  Just because you are well known doesn't mean you are treating all pieces the same.  Unless you've been in business 50-70 years, there is no way to tell what your practices may yield.  However, true conservation based practices are 100s of years proven.  Regardless of the restorer, there is no way to know.  I may ask Postermountain to use conservative wheat paste and watercolor pencils only on all my posters but collector X is OK with 785 Clear wallpaper paste and permanent color pencils.  Postermountain shouldn't mean anything in terms of conservation - sure, they are good with an airbrush though; spewing acrylic paint all over your poster.  It's better to not know.

Plus, back to my original point.  Even if Postermountain is all over the poster - you still don't know where and how a poster was stored.

[Neo]

Though adding the name of well known and respected restorers like Poster Mountain, Mario Cueva, Studio C etc, would actually instill confidence in bidders that know of these folks and perhaps even boost sales. It all makes for interesting thought and discussion, Brandon.

Indeed.

 

[erik1925]

Indeed.

 

For sure, Brandon. That's what the point of this thread was.. whether a restorer's name should be part of an auction description or not, and what people think about that idea.

[stewart boyle]

While I agree it would be great to know who has worked on which posters (and exactly what was done to them) - I think the difficulty lies in when posters have been resold many times over.  Confirmation of the original restorer is simply lost by that point since there really is no standard or accepted documentation method in the hobby that stays with the poster over time...

Can't disagree with all the concerns raised.